choosing a harddrive

i can't decide which of these to get.

WD Caviar 250GB Hard Drive
Ultra ATA/100, 7,200 RPM, 8MB
$56
http//computers.pricegrabber.com/hard-drives/m/783378/


Seagate Barracuda 7200.8 250GB Hard Drive
Serial ATA-150, 7,200 RPM, 8MB
$64
http//computers.pricegrabber.com/hard-drives/m/5862367/


Seagate 300GB ST3300631A-RK Ultra DMA/100 Retail Hard Drive
7200RPM; 16MB Buffer
$60
http//shop2.outpost.com/product/4596277#detailed


ok, the first two are 8 MB, the third is 16MB (buffer size). i read that except for transferring some large files, buffer size doesn't matter. read the same thing from several sources. the third one is 50GB more, but it's average seek time is 11.something ms. the other two are 8.9ms. i read that is the best indicator of performance. the second one is SATA, the other two are IDE. it's also $8 more than the first one.... not sure if SATA matters all that much. it claims a maximum 150MB/sec transfer speed, vs 100MB, but i dunno how true that is or if it's more theoretical.
which is the better choice? i don't really care about an extra 50 gigs as i don't even need 250 - it's just a sweet spot as far as pricing goes. (i'll also have my current drive too, which is 80 GB)

Those are pretty good but I like my Western Digital myself. They are a little more pricy but I have never had a problem with them myself.

From that list, I would go with the 2nd Seagate.

Personally, I'm a big fan of Western Digital, and I really dislike Seagate.

Do you even have a SATA controller? If so, I'd recommend a SATA drive, but not so much for speed reasons -- until you move up to the Raptors or the high-cap, high-density platters, SATA doesn't give you any noticeable real world performance benefit. However they're easier to install and the narrow cable allows for better airflow in your system. They're also more future-proof -- PATA ports are slowly dropping off of systems while SATA port count is increasing, so you'll be more likely to be able re-use the drive in future system builds.

Western Digital Caviar 16MB cache 250GB SATA II - $64 shipped from ZZF[=http//www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=101220-12]Western Digital Caviar 16MB cache 250GB SATA II - $64 shipped from ZZF

yeah, my system has SATA connectors.
i might just go for the WD and save $8.

why don't you like seagate dmorris?

[quote2ac010dee4="zdub08"]why don't you like seagate dmorris?[/quote2ac010dee4]
Out of the hundreds, hell probably thousands by now, of hard drives I've bought/used/installed over the last 20 years, I've had far more Seagate failures than any other brand. So after awhile you develop a bad taste in your mouth. )

I used to be a Maxtor fan, and then Seagate bought them. And guess what within a year or so I started seeing unusual numbers of Maxtor failures too. Coincidence? Maybe. With WD and IBM/Hitachi I've had maybe 3-4 failures in as many years.

It's a heated topic though -- some people swear by Seagate and hate WD, so YMMV. My own opinions are obviously colored by my own experiences.

I have never had a problem with Western Digital.

My Maxtor from my old Dell desktop ended up failing after a few years, but this was after I got my iBook, so I didn't really care.

oh, i think i saw good deals on Hitachi, but they didn't seem like a brand of HDD i see often, so i just skipped those...

I bought a 300gb seagate for $60 (from frys, no rebates) the other day after I saw it on slickdeals. all the guys were excited because it ended up being 7200.10 instead of 7200.9. what does the number after the 7200 RPM mean?

revolutions per minute.
you sure that's not the same drive i posted about? outpost is the same as fry's.

hmm, after looking at the store selling the first drive several bucks cheaper than elsewhere, i think i'll just pay more and order from someone else. they have a 4/5 rating but 64 outta 275 reviews are 1 or 2 stars. i'm just kinda leary.

[quote45316f85ad="zdub08"]I bought a 300gb seagate for $60 (from frys, no rebates) the other day after I saw it on slickdeals. all the guys were excited because it ended up being 7200.10 instead of 7200.9. what does the number after the 7200 RPM mean?[/quote45316f85ad]
It's how Seagate defines generations within a product line. Like a Barracuda 7200.10 is the 10th revision or generation of the Barracuda line.

[quote45316f85ad="gnznroses"]hmm, after looking at the store selling the first drive several bucks cheaper than elsewhere, i think i'll just pay more and order from someone else. they have a 4/5 rating but 64 outta 275 reviews are 1 or 2 stars. i'm just kinda leary.[/quote45316f85ad]
ZipZoomFly and Newegg are always safe bets and they usually have the best price of any reputable dealer. When you see "Storefront" in the PriceGrabber list, it means they don't even have their own website, they just have a PriceGrabber store (similar to an eBay store). I stay away from those.

I would have recommended eTech4Sale since I've had good luck with them in the past and they run excellent specials, however they are now officially on my $hit list. I just bought a 500GB Western Digital combo with the Nexstar3 eSATA enclosure I've been wanting, because the deal was right ($128 shipped). Got it and the enclosure rocks, but decided to open it up and check the drive (they pre-build these combos for you) and the drive is a refurb. No mention in the ad, which I have a screen capture of. Their excuse is that the enclosure is new therefore they can sell them with refurbed drives as "new." I questioned the legality of it and they decided they'd offer me a 100% refund including shipping, sans restocking fee, and provide a return shipping label. As far as I'm concerned, if they're going to try to justify their "Packard Bell" business practices, they'll not get any more of my business.

i check newegg too, but on all these others i'm looking at, it's not a storefront but a reputable place that has the best price. i just found out myu comp supports SATAII (at least from my understanding, since it says it supports SATA 300), so i think i'll get this hitachi drive with SATAII. cause that'd be much, much faster if it has real-world impact. [bbb9a0c985c]edit nm, as expected it doesn't matter...[/bbb9a0c985c]
http//computers.pricegrabber.com/hard-drives/m/8451346/qlty=n
$65

but now that i'm spending $60+ i need to check newegg again.

[quotef6760fa397="gnznroses"]oh, i think i saw good deals on Hitachi, but they didn't seem like a brand of HDD i see often, so i just skipped those...[/quotef6760fa397]
Missed this post and figured I'd comment. IBM sold their hard drive division to Hitachi a few years back, for awhile they were co-manufacturing drives but now it's all Hitachi. Using IBM's manufacturing facilities and technology though, and IBM has always had the best HDD technology (and they own most of the major HDD patents). The 75GXP debacle notwithstanding, their drives have always been Cadillacs, performing at or near the top of the heap. WD has recently given them a run for their money, and they often knock each other out of the #1 spot in performance and reliability. You can't go wrong with either, IMO.

Funny enough, I avoided Maxtor like the plague for many years due to a bad rep, and succumbed on several Black Fridays. Not had one fail yet. On the other hand, I had a WD fail within a month of purchase, and I hadn't had a failure in years. (Another Caviar)

I'm not calling dmorris' claims into question. It's just the luck of the draw sometimes, and I just don't automatically label a brand as crap anymore. I research everyone all over again in anticipation of a purchase now. Things can always change.

[quoted37b2ee23e="Tholek"]Funny enough, I avoided Maxtor like the plague for many years due to a bad rep, and succumbed on several Black Fridays. Not had one fail yet. On the other hand, I had a WD fail within a month of purchase, and I hadn't had a failure in years. (Another Caviar)

I'm not calling dmorris' claims into question. It's just the luck of the draw sometimes, and I just don't automatically label a brand as crap anymore. I research everyone all over again in anticipation of a purchase now. Things can always change.[/quoted37b2ee23e]
Very true, which is why I mentioned all the usual disclaimers regarding holy wars and YMMV. )

I'm just bitter, having had more Seagates fail on me over the years than all other brands COMBINED. Hard drives, like any other complex machinery, are going to fail, and sometimes you get a lemon. I don't care what brand, they are all prone to premature failure. But when I have such a long running trend as I've had with Seagate, I take the hint. ;)

ok, picked my drive ;)
http//www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=101220-12&prodlist=pricegrabber
WD 250GB SATAII w/ 16MB buffer

ZZF has it $2 cheaper than Newegg and also has it at the exact same price as the 8MB cache model, which otherwise is the same except it lists a 10.something ms latency time and the 16MB one lists 4.something ms. so i'll assume or pretend that matters, but it's the same price so there's no question which to get...

Don't get too caught up in average latency and seek times. For desktop use, that doesn't matter a hill of beans compared to cache size, burst speeds, and sustained transfer rates. Latency and seek times matter more on multi-user systems like servers that are servicing many users or connections at once and seeking all over the drive constantly. For regular desktop use, you won't notice a bit of difference.

none of the sites i looked on listed burst or sustained speeds (excluding for the hitachis).
but the drive i've picked sounds like it has a good combination of specs.

[quote5cf41659a5="gnznroses"]none of the sites i looked on listed burst or sustained speeds (excluding for the hitachis).
but the drive i've picked sounds like it has a good combination of specs.[/quote5cf41659a5]
It's fine.

No factory HDD specs, that I know of, indicate burst speeds and sustained transfer rates. That information comes from published reviews and benchmarks, or your own experiences. Certain brands and models, same as with videocards and other components, develop reputations for being top performers. And like with videocards, that list is subject to change as new generations appear, however WD and Hitachi are almost always near or at the top.

I've always had good experience w/ WD....Only had one of those fail on me (which of course was in my modded original xbox and that bricked that for a while), but I've owned at least 12 different drives, used and new, and they're all still running except that one.

I bought 1 maxtor, and while it works, it heats way the hell up when I'm using it, and reads/writes so slow I'm sure there is something seriously wrong w/ it, and it's always been that way (It might be an issue with the fact that my MB doesn't really support drives as large as it is, and I'm using maxtors utility to make it work as a slave drive).

I also have a Hitachi in my laptop, which of course is only a 5400 drive, but I still go to my laptop much more often than my desktops simply b/c the only place I notice the slow hdd is at boot up.

Always a good experience with WD and their OEM drives are 3 year warranty. I also like seagate but avoid Hitachi and Maxtor as much as possible, even if the price is right.

A little extra advice If your computer has sata, utilize it, even if you are just looking for the cheapest drive, sata will be cleaner and faster, and shouldnt cost any more than your IDE drive. Also, I would look for something with 16mb cache, this definetly helps performance-wise

Seagate FTW...5 year warranty

[quotee620529a0f="manOFice"]Seagate FTW...5 year warranty[/quotee620529a0f]
Warranty alone is not an indicator of a good drive, and of little consolation to those who suffer data loss. Plus their warranty service has been pretty widely criticized as well.

But I'll (try to) stop bashing Seagate now. ;)

My 250 gig maxtor died after a year, my 120 WD just died after about 7-8 years, and now i'm running two seagates...so far no problems )

[quote1064527e1d="manOFice"]My 250 gig maxtor died after a year, my 120 WD just died after about 7-8 years, and now i'm running two seagates...so far no problems )[/quote1064527e1d]
The Maxtor I can understand -- it's a Seagate. ;)

7-8 years out of any drive is to be considered a pretty good lifetime. Yes, I have some that are older (although NO Seagate I've ever owned survived that long), but I consider it a bonus. Generally if they last 5 years, they've more than paid for themselves, and I wouldn't trust critical data to a drive much older that that, no matter the brand.

You guys are making it really really hard for me not to post anti-Seagate stuff. I should recuse myself from this thread. lol

how do seagates have 5 year warranties if they're so bad? from what you've said, it seems like they would be replacing every hdd they sold.

[quote7dbc54e571="zdub08"]how do seagates have 5 year warranties if they're so bad? from what you've said, it seems like they would be replacing every hdd they sold.[/quote7dbc54e571]

I know it is hard to believe but dmorris can be biased and / or wrong (sorry dmorris). There are plenty of forum members with good experiences with seagate, the only true agreement among all of us is that maxtor is garbage.

[quotec2e4c1fd13="zdub08"]how do seagates have 5 year warranties if they're so bad? from what you've said, it seems like they would be replacing every hdd they sold.[/quotec2e4c1fd13]
Their warranty program service is pretty bad. They will void your warranty for the slightest of reasons, including such things as installing in your own external enclosure, or for buying OEM/bare drives instead of retail. The vast majority of online vendors sell them OEM/bare, which is how you get the best price. And with many other drive manufacturers, OEM/bare drives carry [ic2e4c1fd13]better[/ic2e4c1fd13] warranties than their retail counterparts.

When they do replace drives, they charge $25 for an "expedited" return, otherwise you get to wait several weeks if not months for a replacement. Depending on capacity (such as this 250GB model) $25 is half the cost of a new drive that you could have in days, versus a refurb that you get in weeks/months. No thanks, I'd rather have a brand with a decent 3-year warranty (or even 1-year) that I can feel confident in. My goal is to never need the warranty anyway. Warranties can't replace lost data.

A lot of crappy things throw out great sounding warranties to make themselves look reliable, but it's a smokescreen. Hyundai was a good example. Granted they've made recent strides in quality but for years were total junk, and yet they had one of the best standard powertrain warranty (100K miles/10 years) in the auto business. Build 'em cheap and take a gamble on the repair rate. People get suckered in by that.

It's a gamble similar to offering mail in rebates. A certain percentage -- usually a significant percentage -- will not avail themselves of a warranty when something fails. They'll just toss it rather than be bothered with the whole RMA/return/wait scenario. A buddy of mine runs a PC repair business on the side, and he gets customers all the time who bring him a PC with a dead drive, pay him to put in a new one, and they'll just give him the old one to dispose of. Often he'll get online and check the serial number for warranty status, and has RMA's & received several "free" drives that way. All it cost was his time and a few bucks shipping. The customer's just didn't want to wait or be bothered, or didn't know how to claim the warranty.

[quotee0887c4ed6="JOSHBOX"][quotee0887c4ed6="zdub08"]how do seagates have 5 year warranties if they're so bad? from what you've said, it seems like they would be replacing every hdd they sold.[/quotee0887c4ed6]

I know it is hard to believe but dmorris can be biased and / or wrong (sorry dmorris). There are plenty of forum members with good experiences with seagate, the only true agreement among all of us is that maxtor is garbage.[/quotee0887c4ed6]
Fair enough. I never claimed it to be scientific fact, just my own experience. And I did say that some will disagree with me.

But what I say, I say with over 20 years of PC building experience, having gone through hundreds if not thousands of drives of all brands. Not only does my own experience bear this out, but [ie0887c4ed6]every single one[/ie0887c4ed6] of my numerous real-world colleagues with similar experience levels have the same opinion of Seagate based upon their own experience. Including the aforementioned buddy with his own PC repair business. He and I have both seen more Seagate failures than all other brand failures COMBINED. I don't know about you, but it's kinda hard for me to ignore that. shrug

So take that for whatever it's worth. As I said, this debate often devolves into a holy war, because for some reason people have some really strong brand loyalties. Often based on a very limited experience or product sample. But that's fine, as I said before, lots of folks can be found that will disagree with me on the Seagate issue, so no worries. ;)

Since I've been building PCs for myself, I've only had two drives die on me. One was Maxtor and the other was a WD. Now I only buy seagates. and never had a problem with them. That's not to say that WD/Maxtor are crap, and I've read plenty about people who've had problems with Seagate (see above).

You can also check out storagereview.com to see what people say about each hard drive and various benchmarks. Even a good company can release a crap drive and vice-versa and you can check that out in the reliability database.

[quote854813077a="JOSHBOX"]...the only true agreement among all of us is that maxtor is garbage.[/quote854813077a]

That's what I once thought, but again, I bought a few several years ago and all are still running great. I haven't had the same luck with WD. shrug

I'm looking at buying this since I got a 20% off any Western Digital External Hard Drive coupon from Best Buy, so this would really only be $120

http//www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8188052&st=western+digital&type=product&id=1164155963918

Anyone use one of these before?

Yeah, as I think I mentioned earlier, the only recent-vintage Maxtor's that I've had fail were after they were bought by Seagate. I used to buy Maxtor's almost exclusively due to their price, and IIRC they were the first to start using liquid bearings and so were quieter and cooler than the rest. I did have a couple of really old 8GB models die, but the larger cap stuff (40GB and up) did fine up until the first one I bought that was Seagate-made. Again reinforcing my opinion of Seagate.

I've found that StorageReview tends to favor Seagate, a fact that led me to briefly give up my Seagate boycott several years ago. I figured, based on StorageReview reports, that Seagate had probably worked through their quality issues and were now (then) perhaps more reliable. So when a friend building a HTPC asked me what drives he should buy, I steered him to Seagate after finding Dell at the time running a sale on 250GB Barracudas. He bought two of them. The first one failed after one week, the second after a few months. I kid you not, that's a true story. I had serious egg on my face after that one, particularly since he had his own reservations about Seagate at the time, and I talked him into it using the StorageReview reports as evidence.

Maybe that will help shed some more light on why I feel as strongly as I do. Perhaps only me and people I know get all the bad ones, but I can only imagine what karmic event in any past life would cause that to happen to me. (

Oh, and reliability aside, just about all the recent performance reviews I've seen have put Seagate drives a distant third behind WD and Hitachi in most benchmarks.

[quote47e2d412a5="tylerc"]I'm looking at buying this since I got a 20% off any Western Digital External Hard Drive coupon from Best Buy, so this would really only be $120

http//www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8188052&st=western+digital&type=product&id=1164155963918

Anyone use one of these before?[/quote47e2d412a5]
That's a good deal actually. MyBooks are great external drives (if you prefer to buy off-shelf externals) and that's the Premium model with eSATA. I paid almost that much for a Nexstar3 eSATA enclosure combo'ed with what turned out to be a refurbed 500GB WD drive. I'm not a fan of refurbs, particularly for a backup drive as this was supposed to be, so I raised hell with the vendor and they're RMA'ing it for me.

I might just go ahead and jump on that myself when my RMA refund comes back, although I usually prefer to build my own.

[quotea56243b953="dmorris68"][quotea56243b953="tylerc"]I'm looking at buying this since I got a 20% off any Western Digital External Hard Drive coupon from Best Buy, so this would really only be $120

http//www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8188052&st=western+digital&type=product&id=1164155963918

Anyone use one of these before?[/quotea56243b953]
That's a good deal actually. MyBooks are great external drives (if you prefer to buy off-shelf externals) and that's the Premium model with eSATA. I paid almost that much for a Nexstar3 eSATA enclosure combo'ed with what turned out to be a refurbed 500GB WD drive. I'm not a fan of refurbs, particularly for a backup drive as this was supposed to be, so I raised hell with the vendor and they're RMA'ing it for me.

I might just go ahead and jump on that myself when my RMA refund comes back, although I usually prefer to build my own.[/quotea56243b953]

I built my last one, I have no complaints from my WD, but it's not eSATA, my old iBook didn't have a SATA controller, but my new Mac Book does.

Would you see the same results/speed from an eSATA pcmcia laptop card?

[quote6935391912="ILoveToys"]Would you see the same results/speed from an eSATA pcmcia laptop card?[/quote6935391912]
On paper, no, but in real-world performance, probably. CPU utilitization would likely be higher though, but probably not as high as USB (that's just a guess, though).

If the best you could do was PC Card eSATA, it would still be better than any other external connection.

I was just thinking about my laptop, and that looks like the best option I have at this point.

Personally, I've never had a problem with Seagate. Personally, I'd get the second HDD because I download a lot of crap.

But, make sure, (if you buy the second one) that your motherboard accepts SATA(The thin cables, not the big arse ribbon ones).

Mine has to accept SATA cables since it said my Mac Book has an eSATA internal, right?

[quoted632457bdc="tylerc"]Mine has to accept SATA cables since it said my Mac Book has an eSATA internal, right?[/quoted632457bdc]
eSATA is external SATA, so it can't by definition be internal. ;)

Your Mac Book might use internal SATA drives, as most notebooks do nowadays, but that doesn't help you with eSATA support -- you'd have to have an eSATA port somewhere on the outside of your Mac Book. I'm not a Mac person so I don't know if they support eSATA or not, but I've not seen many (any?) Wintel notebooks with eSATA.

For desktops, most eSATA drives include a bracket that lets you convert an internal SATA port to an eSATA port, but that's obviously not an option for a notebook.

Well, I'm sure you can get an external drive, but we all prefer internal P.

Check the manual which came with your Macbook and read up about it.

[quotee5b4634b82="Menchions"]Well, I'm sure you can get an external drive, but we all prefer internal P.

Check the manual which came with your Macbook and read up about it.[/quotee5b4634b82]
He was needing an external for his notebook. Sure he can use a USB/Firewire drive, but he was looking at an eSATA capable MyBook.

I have several externals, they serve a great purpose. Besides, with the availability of eSATA, I prefer external drives anyway. Performance is the same as internal, and they're portable.