HD-DVD or Blu-Ray?

Live forum: http://forum.freeipodguide.com/viewtopic.php?t=63154

tylerc

27-05-2007 09:38:02

I'm still up in the air over which to get.

I have a Samsung 26" LCD HDTV, and an XBOX 360.

I'm working on Trainn's PS3 site right now, so I could get the PS3 and have the Blu-Ray player, or I could get cash from them now ($375) and buy the HD-DVD add on for XBOX 360.

Having a PS3 isn't really that important to me as far as the games go, but I'm sure I would get a few games to screw around on, like Resistance.

Best Buy has a deal going on with their HD-DVD add-on where you can get 2 free HD-DVDs if you buy the Matrix Trilogy on HD-DVD for $80 along with the HD-DVD kit, which is a good deal.

So what I'm looking for is recommendations, and pros and cons for each of the formats. I know Blu-Ray is technically better than HD-DVD, but I'm more concerned about which one won't die out. Finding out this week would be nice, because if I decide to get the HD-DVD, there's that deal going on, but I definitely need to know before I leave for school in August.

+Karma will be given for good responses.

gnznroses

27-05-2007 19:57:53

HD-DVD is doomed. BluRay already makes up 70% of HD sales. HD-DVD has 1 exclusive content provider, BluRay has 2 or 3.
1 year from now, HD-DVD will be like UMD.

h3x

27-05-2007 20:31:25

What about the unclaimed tens of millions of Americans that own an HDTV set and are reluctant to buy either HD DVD or BD? It all boils down to

[b3a27be3385]Sales & Costs[/b3a27be3385] - The only reason why Blu-Ray is leaving an impression on sales is due to the fact that the majority of BD players sold is the PlayStation 3 (which Sony will vigorously count as a BD player sale)... HD DVD players have outsold Blu-Ray with 100,000+ units sold (and that's excluding the Xbox360 HD DVD Add-on and PC Drives). Also, the majority of consumers that have an HDTV (which is only 28% of the country) are still waiting it out due to costs... Blu-Ray is more expensive to produce, while HD DVD is more cost effecient. Currently HD DVD is outperforming Blu-Ray in Europe by wide margins (last month's sales were 82% HD DVD / 18% Blu-Ray).

[b3a27be3385]Destructive DRM[/b3a27be3385] - Remember the CD Rootkit that Sony implemented on it's Audio CDs? Sony just recently activated BD+ (which is their new DRM with several layers of protection). Now all BD discs produced will take an additional 7-28 days to manufacture due to BD+... Also, if your player detects you're playing a decrypted BD disc, your player can render itself non-functional... In other words, you don't own the discs you buy and if you attempt to circumvent the protection (whether its to play a backed-up movie or to play a region cracked disc) and your player detects the disc, say goodbye to your $600 investment.

[b3a27be3385]International Compatability[/b3a27be3385] - Blu-Ray implements Region Locks on it's discs... HD DVD is region-free.

[b3a27be3385]The Adult Film Industry[/b3a27be3385] - The adult film industry (which is a $12 billion industry) is supporting HD DVD due to lower costs to produce a disc and less hassles with implementing DRM (where all BD discs produced from now own must have BD+). Sony prohibits any X-rated content from being produced in it's BD factories.

BD sales look great on paper now due to the PS3 installed base and it's users buying BD discs... But not everyone is a gamer and most consumers prefer a standalone unit. Once the players are in the $200 range, that's when you'll start to see which format will come out ahead... It's too early to make any predictions either way.

For those that aren't sure which format to support, I would highly suggest you just wait it out for at least another year. This "format war" is only a year old and it doesn't look like either format will be going anywhere, anytime soon (despite what a certain "Somethin4Nothin" owner might lead to believe ;)).

However, if you prefer your HD content free of region locks and destructive DRM (and maybe the occasional HD porno flick), then HD DVD is the right choice for you.

Tholek

27-05-2007 20:59:21

[quotec968ba6b21="h3x"]2. [bc968ba6b21]Destructive DRM[/bc968ba6b21] - Remember the CD Rootkit that Sony implemented on it's Audio CDs? Sony just recently activated BD+ (which is their new DRM with several layers of protection). Now all BD discs produced will take an additional 7-28 days to manufacture due to BD+... Also, if your player detects you're playing a decrypted BD disc, your player can render itself non-functional... In other words, you don't own the discs you buy and if you attempt to circumvent the protection (whether its to play a backed-up movie or to play a region cracked disc) and your player detects the disc, say goodbye to your $600 investment.[/quotec968ba6b21]

It's hard to imagine someone not being able to hack the hardware someday, so that doesn't occur, though.

Anyhow, not able to afford being a videophile, I am mainly interested in the formats for their archival abilities. Whichever format comes out on top will sell more, and that should mean cheaper media, and lower cost backups.

h3x

27-05-2007 21:36:05

[quote74bda5a572="Tholek"][quote74bda5a572="h3x"]2. [b74bda5a572]Destructive DRM[/b74bda5a572] - Remember the CD Rootkit that Sony implemented on it's Audio CDs? Sony just recently activated BD+ (which is their new DRM with several layers of protection). Now all BD discs produced will take an additional 7-28 days to manufacture due to BD+... Also, if your player detects you're playing a decrypted BD disc, your player can render itself non-functional... In other words, you don't own the discs you buy and if you attempt to circumvent the protection (whether its to play a backed-up movie or to play a region cracked disc) and your player detects the disc, say goodbye to your $600 investment.[/quote74bda5a572]

It's hard to imagine someone not being able to hack the hardware someday, so that doesn't occur, though.

Anyhow, not able to afford being a videophile, I am mainly interested in the formats for their archival abilities. Whichever format comes out on top will sell more, and that should mean cheaper media, and lower cost backups.[/quote74bda5a572]

That's the point... It's certainly possible someone can find out how to circumvent BD+, but Sony will sooner or later find out and that's when you'll see self-destruction happening to players running whatever exploit that's being used to circumvent the protection.

Tholek

28-05-2007 06:26:53

No, I meant that people will even find a way to defeat [i8ecdaebbd9]that[/i8ecdaebbd9] as well.

Wolfeman

28-05-2007 10:16:23

Honestly I think HD-DVD will end up winning...

Jams44

28-05-2007 10:25:14

I still use Beta-Maxx . there isnt any rush for me )

gnznroses

28-05-2007 11:09:54

h3x, i believe some of your points are outdated. new BD production methods have lowered the costs to that of HD-DVD, and i'm pretty sure the porn industry is supporting BD as well (eg Vivid Video). the talk of them not supporting BD at all turned out to be BS.

your sales data is wrong as well (i googled it). in fact it's the polar opposite of what you just said

[quotec2679030ec]Up until March 23rd, HD-DVD sales were doing pretty well in the European market. Then along came the PS3 and snagged 87% of HD disc sales for the following week. Blu-Ray is still selling pretty well, outselling HD-DVD by an average margin of 3-to1. This certainly bodes well for the PS3's success, considering earlier sentiments made by analysts and developers.

How well is Blu-Ray doing in other markets, compared to HD-DVD? In Japan, the figures are a lot higher, with Blu-Ray pwning 96% of the entire HD market. If Blu-Ray sales continue to beat out HD-DVD with additional market share, the next gen format war may have a clear victor. Now lets make quick with that Matrix Blu-Ray set already!

http//www.ps3fanboy.com/2007/05/21/europe-sees-blu-ray-sales-boosted-by-ps3/
[/quotec2679030ec]


[quotec2679030ec]Up until the PS3s launch on 23 March, HD DVD was comfortably outselling Blu-ray discs. However, in the week after PS3 was launched in Europe, Blu-ray discs accounted for almost 87% of all HD disc sales.

In the period since 23 March, Blu-ray discs have consistently out sold HD DVD's rival product by a significant margin.

In the latest week that the figures report, Blu-ray discs outsold HD DVDs by a factor of more than three to one.

This means that despite the PS3 being available for only one month of this four-month period, Blu-ray software sales account for over 64% of the total volume since the start of the year.
http//www.pocket-lint.co.uk/news/news.phtml/7817/8841/PlayStation3-gives-Blu-ray-discs-boosts.phtml
[/quotec2679030ec]


i do agree that DRM sucks, but i don't expect any BD players to lock themselves down. while it may be possible, but i wouldn't count on it. SOME models may implemement that, but i'm sure the PS3 and other models won't.

Tholek

28-05-2007 11:30:54

[quote9b4dd7363c="gnznroses"]your sales data is wrong as well (i googled it). in fact it's the polar opposite of what you just said[/quote9b4dd7363c]

He [i9b4dd7363c]does[/i9b4dd7363c] live in Alaska...

h3x

28-05-2007 14:34:22

That's strange... I'm getting a polar opposite to your story as well...

[quotea22984bfc9]So far, [ba22984bfc9]April[/ba22984bfc9] has seen some good news emerging from the HD DVD camp. Earlier this month, we learned that HD DVD has taken the early lead in the European market, helped by the preference of European movie studios for the format. The European studios, which operate on leaner budgets than their Hollywood counterparts, like HD DVD's lower manufacturing costs. One executive said that a Blu-ray replication line costs between 1.7 million and 1.8 million and is capable of churning out 10,000-15,000 discs per day, compared to 40,000 discs per day on an HD DVD line that cost less than half of that. As a result, [ba22984bfc9]HD DVD titles lead Blu-ray titles in Europe by a 3.5-to-1 margin.[/ba22984bfc9][/quotea22984bfc9]


http//arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070418-dedicated-hd-dvd-players-outsell-blu-ray-counterparts.html

Regardless, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. However, any boost in BD sales is due to launch of the PlayStation 3 (which has only sold 800,000+ units in Europe as of April). Naturally, video game consoles will outsell standalone disc players because they are two different products and as of now, standalone HD disc players cost at least $200 more than a video game console that has an HD disc drive built-in. If the Xbox360 for instance had an HD DVD drive built-in from the start, it would be a completely different picture in regards to sales.

But once the price of the standalone players of either format drop down to the $200 range, that's when you'll see HD consumers picking a format as it's more affordable. The majority of HDTV owners don't have either format yet, and that's the people you're trying to appeal to.

[quotea22984bfc9]i do agree that DRM sucks, but i don't expect any BD players to lock themselves down. while it may be possible, but i wouldn't count on it. SOME models may implemement that, but i'm sure the PS3 and other models won't.[/quotea22984bfc9]

Sony is known for this behavior... If you let them have control, there's no doubt in my mind that they'll begin self-destructing players when someone figures out how to workaround the BD+... BD+ and the self-destruction feature is now mandated and implemented in all BD players (including the PS3).

[quotea22984bfc9]and i'm pretty sure the porn industry is supporting BD as well (eg Vivid Video)[/quotea22984bfc9]

Vivid Video is the only one that is planning to release a title on BD and that's still up in the air with no foreseeable release date (most likely to do with licensing agreements). Also, they haven't even decided on what title to release to BD, yet. I have a feeling that they will end up scrapping BD and go straight to HD DVD as there are already at least 6 HD DVD titles that are available to purchase and they can take an even more affordable route and put HD content on 3x DVD (which can store 85 minutes of 1080p content).

Even the co-founder of Vivid admits the cost of authoring BD discs is pretty steep.

[quotea22984bfc9]Hirsch said cost could be an obstacle in releasing titles on Blu-ray, which would cost $50,000 per release for the authoring fee ..."If you want to be in that business, you have to take chances, Hirsch said. [/quotea22984bfc9]

Vivid Entertainment (which is one of the leading names in the adult film industry) has the money to take a chance with BD... But what about all the other numerous adult film producers that don't have their pockets lined with money to afford paying a $50,000 authoring fee + the cost of producing BD discs?

HD DVD and Blu-Ray can be 50/50 as far as I'm concerned (though I would prefer HD DVD over Blu Ray for the sake of no regional restrictions and no insane DRM policies)... But there is no way that HD DVD is going anywhere, anytime soon. Especially since you have TV series that are HD DVD exclusive coming out such as "Heroes"[=http//www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Disc_Announcements/Universal/Heroes_HD_DVD_Specs_Revealed/645]"Heroes"... Then there is HD DVD's IME (In Movie Experience)[=http//trailers.warnerbros.com/web/player.jsp?client=HomeVideo&group=HomeVideoNewReleases&trailer=mhdime_virtual_background]HD DVD's IME (In Movie Experience) that is clearly superior [ua22984bfc9](in my opinion)[/ua22984bfc9] to Blu-Ray's "Blu-Wizard" and some manufacturers like Samsung (who was once firmly seated in the BD camp) coming out with a Dual HD DVD/BD player.

BTW, I love where you got your sales data from...

[quotea22984bfc9="gnznroses"]http//www.[ba22984bfc9]ps3fanboy.com[/ba22984bfc9]/2007/05/21/europe-sees-blu-ray-sales-boosted-by-ps3/[/quotea22984bfc9]

;)

gnznroses

28-05-2007 16:15:27

haha, yeah i noticed that url too. that's why i was sure to find another page (actually from the UK even) to back it up. but it is strange they report opposite things. my story was more recent, May 21st i think, but yours is only from april. so i dunno...

tylerc

28-05-2007 17:55:41

I caved today and got the HD-DVD add on for the XBOX 360.

I got The Matrix Trilogy for $80 and it came with 2 free HD-DVDs, so I bought Smokin' Aces and Traffic.

Powerbook

29-05-2007 15:29:31

[quote8493a82d80="tylerc"]I caved today and got the HD-DVD add on for the XBOX 360.

I got The Matrix Trilogy for $80 and it came with 2 free HD-DVDs, so I bought Smokin' Aces and Traffic.[/quote8493a82d80]


excellent choice since HD-DVD will come up on top ) wink

hehehhehe

30-05-2007 09:41:57

I was gone from the forum so I couldn't comment, but I would've recommended the PS3 simply because you're tied down to having a working 360 (which is dodgy) to be able to watch HD-DVDs. Given the price though, you can simply resell it if you ever change your mind.

As for the discrepancy in h3x and gznroses' numbers, it just has to do with dates. The ps3 effect took over and BR titles sold more after the initial HD-DVD lead, just like it did here.

h3x

31-05-2007 20:20:42

[quote351959343a="hehehhehe"]I would've recommended the PS3 simply because you're tied down to having a working 360 (which is dodgy) to be able to watch HD-DVDs. Given the price though, you can simply resell it if you ever change your mind.[/quote351959343a]

You can use the Xbox360 HD DVD drive on a Windows machine (If you have Vista, all you need to do is plug it in and use HD DVD playback software such as WinDVD and PowerDVD... Windows XP users, download the driver prior to plugging it into the PC and download WinDVD or PowerDVD).

Also, you could always get a standalone HD DVD player starting at $300 (all Toshiba HD DVD players comes with 5 free HD DVDs in the mail, so no matter which player you choose, its a great deal).

But as I've said before, if you still can't decide between the two formats... Then just wait until next year. Its too early to declare either one as the "winner".

Big War Bird

04-06-2007 04:41:36

For you I would have recommended not getting either.

First unless you TV supports 1080p, the resolution gain is not going to be that great anyway. I have a 32 inch TV 720p machine and with a good progressive scan DVD player the movies are nearly as good as my HD programming.

Even if you TV does have 1080p as a pratical viewing matter you won't be able to see the extra resolution anyway. You would have to sit pretty close to screen the TV for your eyes discern the extra details.

My advice to anyone else in a similar situation is to wait. Prices on both HD players and HDTVs are declining rapidly. By waiting you can more easily afford both a HD player and a TV worthy of it.

NickAtFMS

10-06-2007 10:34:10

HD-DVD will eventually win but no one will notice because we'll all be using hybrid players that support both.

There should even be some $199 HD-DVD players by Christmas this year in the US.

Cheaper to manufacture, same video codecs, cheaper players, and best of all- Region Free. HD-DVD all the way. Vote with your dollar.

Zanpaktou

10-06-2007 14:06:41

The first hybrid player came out last month I think. It's primarily blu-ray but does support HD DVD to an extent.

Anyone remember when the first dvd players came out? they cost a freakin arm and a leg, now they're dirt cheap and miniscule. If you can, wait it out a year or two and youll have yourself a hybrid player which didnt have you taking a second mortgage.