I voted for President Bush and I appologize!

I would first like to say that I respect the position as our nations leader and I still refer to him as President Bush, but I am not happy with where he's taken this nation.

http//www.boston.com/news/nation/gallery/050207_TheCostofWar/

This war is pathetic and is just a complete waste for this faltering country. Every empire in the history of the world has fallen from within, and I do believe that within the next 20 year that too will happen to us. Politics have lost all trust and they no longer seem to represent the needs of the people. Personal agendas have replaced the publics voice. Something needs to change, but if the auto industries can't turn themselves around, how will such a large organization such as the US gov. do the same?

Why am I ranting? Michigan will be closing hundreds of schools this year as well as cutting the per child funding by $143. And this comes at a time when President Bush is requesting more money for shit like missiles and guns.

Yeah we are paying for another country's civil war (

go away hippy.

thx for taking 7 years to realize this

[quoteab071aa827="Armstrong"]I would first like to say that I respect the position as our nations leader and I still refer to him as President Bush, but I am not happy with where he's taken this nation.

http//www.boston.com/news/nation/gallery/050207_TheCostofWar/

This war is pathetic and is just a complete waste for this faltering country. Every empire in the history of the world has fallen from within, and I do believe that within the next 20 year that too will happen to us. Politics have lost all trust and they no longer seem to represent the needs of the people. Personal agendas have replaced the publics voice. Something needs to change, but if the auto industries can't turn themselves around, how will such a large organization such as the US gov. do the same?

Why am I ranting? Michigan will be closing hundreds of schools this year as well as cutting the per child funding by $143. And this comes at a time when President Bush is requesting more money for shit like missiles and guns.[/quoteab071aa827]

I am sorry but you have the last part so wrong... the reason the schools are closing is because of J. Granholm (D).

Michigan is in a shit-hole all because of Granholm...

lol...

you should be (sorry that you voted for him)

and yeah, seriously, 7 yrs to figure that out? he even passed a second election

it's all your fault Armstrong... if you didn't vote for him, he never would of got in!

[quotec549670aa1="bruman"]it's all your fault Armstrong... if you didn't vote for him, he never would of got in![/quotec549670aa1]

I know, I know. I was the deciding vote. shame on me. haha

[quote732e4b412d]I am sorry but you have the last part so wrong... the reason the schools are closing is because of J. Granholm (D).

Michigan is in a shit-hole all because of Granholm...[/quote732e4b412d]


I didn't vote for Granholm , and you completely miss read what I was saying. While kids in America are getting the shaft, were wasting money over in iraq. Plain and simple. Please read my post before trying to bash me.

The middle east is a breeding ground for people that want to kill Americans. If our goverment would let our boys fight the way they want to that whole place would be a solid sheet of glass! And I would salute them!

I'll agree with ya there. I'm all for giving the troops what they need to fight.

I rcvd this email that was being sent around by one of our guys over there and they just want to keep us safe. They care about the citizens there, too, but it's all about prevention. There is no way I will feel safe if we just leave before every last one of the fanatics are wiped out. I know that sounds awful and like genecide, but just the crazies, right? The only problem is, the longer we stay, the more we are hated.....even by the people that may have wanted us there to begin with. Its a cluster F@$%!

lol. I support the war, Bush, and our troops over seas but talking politics on a forum usually(who am I kidding, ALWAYS) leads to a flaming war.

lol and then there's always the one guy who goes about and takes quotes and answers each insult line by line. Don't be [b18b5cea99d][i18b5cea99d]"That Guy"[/i18b5cea99d][/b18b5cea99d]

[quote945942424d="Iloveipods2"]lol. I support the war, Bush, and our troops over seas but talking politics on a forum usually(who am I kidding, ALWAYS) leads to a flaming war.

lol and then there's always the one guy who goes about and takes quotes and answers each insult line by line. Don't be [b945942424d][i945942424d]"That Guy"[/i945942424d][/b945942424d][/quote945942424d]

No Flaming Please! Just talk about supporting the guys over there and how much we detest the whole situation. I think most would agree to that.

I think we need to get finished because it's dangerous over there and you never know who could be someone wanting to kill American soldiers.

That said, I still support the troops 100%, and anyone who doesn't should fuck off. Don't agree with the war? Fine, but at least show some god damn respect for people who are fighting.

[quote1ceb6dc292="tylerc"]I think we need to get finished because it's dangerous over there and you never know who could be someone wanting to kill American soldiers.

That said, I still support the troops 100%, and anyone who doesn't should fuck off. Don't agree with the war? Fine, but at least show some god damn respect for people who are fighting.[/quote1ceb6dc292]

I totally agree, when the war first started I put a huge sign on my rear windshield that said, "SUPPORT THE TROOPS OR LEAVE THE COUNTRY" There were always protests going on and it took all I had to not go and let them know that the only reason they had the freedom to sit there and protest was because of our military AND war in the first place. Otherwise we would all be speaking German.

The French would be speaking Kraut if it wasn't for us.

Fuck France.

[quote0dfdbcbb33="tylerc"]The French would be speaking Kraut if it wasn't for us.

Fuck France.[/quote0dfdbcbb33]

lol, and the new French president is a fan of Bush, and his economic policies. NPR said this morning, that we should experience a warming relationship with France, which is nice I suppose, one less place to go occupy.

[quote97a93df8cd="tylerc"]The French would be speaking Kraut if it wasn't for us.

Fuck France.[/quote97a93df8cd]
So would the English and the rest of the world...

I agree...

Just because you oppose a war based on a lie means that you some how are disrespecting our troops? It's the people who are fighting to get our troops out of Iraq that are the ones that really care about them. In the same way, it's the people that are most upset about the events that have been occurring since '03 that care about the country the most. The most unpatriotic thing one could do would be to ignore the current situation and blindly advocate every random move the government makes.. it's just common sense.

And in all respect to the OP, Bush's approval rating reached a steady 80–90% for several months after the 9/11 attacks. It's no more of a surprise that Bush kept his support as long as he did than the fact that his administration was able to get as far as they did. Those assholes that criticize the American public for reelecting Bush, are just that, assholes, if not hypocrites at the very least.

Oh yeah, and if you want to be pissed about something, be pissed about the fact that over half a million innocent Iraqi's have died as a direct result of the overthrow of Saddam. Over 100k in the initial bombings.. Numbers like that just kinda make the American loses seem much less significant.

And we would have lost our own revolutionary war if it wasn't for the French. ^^ Just watch where you're flinging your nationalism; countries are countries, but people should still equal people.

So because France refused to support Bush's war means they should be "fucked"? Or that since America jumped in in WWII that they should simply fall in line and support every rash, misinformed idea that your president may or may not think of himself?

How many of you throwing insults at another race have actually been to where the race in question reside? Why judge an entire nation of people on what one man decides?

You hear on the news or read in the papers (American papers mind you) that the whole world hates America/Americans but what it actually means is that they hate your government. Saying Fuck France (when you likely have had no contact with French people or been to their (beautiful) country) is just as ignorant and arrogant as the people who say Fuck America or claim to hate America based solely on what they've read or seen about it via biased and often one-sided media outlets.

I don't particularly support the troops (because they're illegally occupying another country) but that doesn't mean I want them dead or to be injured. This blind Nationalism is ridiculous and just because someone doesn't support the troops means they must leave the country? Is it compulsory to support the troops?

My cousin went and fought in Iraq and even though I didn't want him dead or to come into any harm, that doesn't mean I supported what he was doing, or had to for that matter.

I think this country is great even though I'm not from here, but I'm not going to "Leave the country" just because I disagree with a moron.

Is Michigan closing its schools because it lost funding due to the No Child Left Behind Act?

Because that thing was [i8487675900]fucked up[/i8487675900] from the start.

I voted for President Bush and I make no apologies. For once we have someone who DOES what he says he's going to do. About damn time.

Well, once again picking apart what other people say and shitting all over it. Sad really, that you can't support the troops and can't let an opinion be an opinion. Do I think that anyone really left the country because of what I said? No! But they know how I feel about it.

And the French, they are always there when they need us, aren't they?

[quote87e374ad4a="A Hart"]And the French, they are always there when they need us, aren't they?[/quote87e374ad4a]

And the xenophobic are always there to make bigoted remarks, aren't they?

[quotebd7607f3d5="A Hart"]Well, once again picking apart what other people say and shitting all over it. Sad really, that you can't support the troops and can't let an opinion be an opinion. Do I think that anyone really left the country because of what I said? No! But they know how I feel about it.

And the French, they are always there when they need us, aren't they?[/quotebd7607f3d5]

To be honest, "you" (America) don't need anyone, you can take over the world and nuke it into next week if you wanted, but the support you seek is nothing more than having someone else on board that you can say "it wasn't just us, they felt the same way" and to take some of the strain off the US troops.

What difference would it have made if France had gone to war with the US? Yup, they'd have more dead soldiers than they do at the moment and less money to spend on things [bbd7607f3d5][ibd7607f3d5]that really matter[/ibd7607f3d5][/bbd7607f3d5], such as education, healthcare, the environment and so on and so forth.

[quotebd7607f3d5="tinkerjenn"]I voted for President Bush and I make no apologies. For once we have someone who DOES what he says he's going to do. About damn time.[/quotebd7607f3d5]

This is a joke right?

Before Bush was reelected he had fulfilled 46% of the promises he had made in his 2000 campaign and as a comparison, President Clinton fulfilled about 66 percent of the 160 commitments that he made during his first presidential campaign.

And that was just up until 2004.

Granted, he did say he'd take the US to war and he did, so I'll give him that.

I suppose not actually being from this country you feel like you have the outside perspective on things. And that's fine. My opinion is coming from actually having email conversations with actual soldiers who are there.

It is a breeding ground for terrorists who's only goal in life is to kill Americans, over there, over here, they don't care where it happens.
So I am supporting the people who are trying to keep the shit out of this country. If you love this country so much why are you against that?

And Clinton, wtf, did you ever hear of White Water?

[quotefd0845424f="A Hart"]The middle east is a breeding ground for people that want to kill Americans. If our goverment would let our boys fight the way they want to that whole place would be a solid sheet of glass! And I would salute them![/quotefd0845424f] That is a really intelligent comment I guess I have been breed to kill americans because I am from Lebanon. If you are trying to keep this thread civil and about supporting our troops don't make ignorant remarks like this. I have had numerous friends go to Iraq and I actually have friends there right now and I support them 100%. But I am from the middle east so I guess I hate Americans roll Take two seconds to think before you post stupid comments.

DOWN WITH STROID!

[quote115edbe775="Stroid"][quote115edbe775="A Hart"]The middle east is a breeding ground for people that want to kill Americans. If our goverment would let our boys fight the way they want to that whole place would be a solid sheet of glass! And I would salute them![/quote115edbe775] That is a really intelligent comment I guess I have been breed to kill americans because I am from Lebanon. If you are trying to keep this thread civil and about supporting our troops don't make ignorant remarks like this. I have had numerous friends go to Iraq and I actually have friends there right now and I support them 100%. But I am from the middle east so I guess I hate Americans roll Take two seconds to think before you post stupid comments.[/quote115edbe775]
Thanks for the stupid vote. Bellybuttons, fella, everyone's got one. Plus if you are an American I don't see how this applies to you.

Ahart should be sent over to the middle east. Put her on the front line.

[quoted65431e467="good2speed"]Ahart should be sent over to the middle east. Put her on the front line.[/quoted65431e467]

You don't know shit about me! I was honorably discharged from the Air Force over six years ago, I did my time. And I can't get back in for medical or I would be glad to go! They wouldn't have let me fight anyway I was a Russian linguist!

Well I dont hate any person. I disagree with alot of what our countrys are doing but I dont disagree with the population on any side. We as Americans belive we are right. They on the other hand belive they are right. we need (and do in most cases) to sit down and come to a comprimise that we can all live with. Now who do you want speaking for you in these talks? thats what America is all about. We get to decide who they are. So if things arnt going the way you like get out and vote for those that will carry the message you want heard. (Fred)

[quote145eb59b8e="A Hart"][quote145eb59b8e="Stroid"][quote145eb59b8e="A Hart"]The middle east is a breeding ground for people that want to kill Americans. If our goverment would let our boys fight the way they want to that whole place would be a solid sheet of glass! And I would salute them![/quote145eb59b8e] That is a really intelligent comment I guess I have been breed to kill americans because I am from Lebanon. If you are trying to keep this thread civil and about supporting our troops don't make ignorant remarks like this. I have had numerous friends go to Iraq and I actually have friends there right now and I support them 100%. But I am from the middle east so I guess I hate Americans roll Take two seconds to think before you post stupid comments.[/quote145eb59b8e]
Thanks for the stupid vote. Bellybuttons, fella, everyone's got one. Plus if you are an American I don't see how this applies to you.[/quote145eb59b8e]Lets see how does this apply to me I am from Lebanon (which is a country in the middle east if you didn't know that) therefore from your comment I have been breed to hate and kill Americans. I am an American and I am Lebanese and I am proud to be both. I vote, I campaign locally, I am a political science graduate and was involved in the politics at my school all of these things are what shape our politics and our way of life in this country.... people like me that do something about what is going on. I suppose an easy solution would be to simply nuke the arabs because we are the US...arab lives arent as valuable to the world as american lives right! We can kill thousands of arabs and go to sleep thinking the world is a better place. And you really need to read better my comment said you need to read before you post "stupid comments" not once did I call you stupid.

sorry you never said hate americans just kill americans

Please keep this civil, or I'll lock the thread.

And for what it's worth, it's silly to make statements that "It is a breeding ground for terrorists who's only goal in life is to kill Americans, over there, over here, they don't care where it happens," because a) you don't define "it" and b) making generalizations about any country based on the actions a few is just plain ignorant.

Does the fact that my President invaded Iraq mean that I agree with, or am representative of his views? No, thank goodness.

[quoteaea7dba996="Stroid"]sorry you never said hate americans just kill americans[/quoteaea7dba996]

You are an American! And I would venture to say you don't want another 9-11 to happen either! Do you think I'm wrong for supporting OUR President and OUR country or do you think I am wrong for thinking that once again the bi-partisan government has tied the hands of our troops who would damn well would have taken care of business years ago if they were allowed to do that they are trained to do? Ya know what, screw it. You think I'm a hater, that's cool. You have that right. Our leaders and military made sure you have that right!

[quoted3eb2bc766="doylnea"]Please keep this civil, or I'll lock the thread.

And for what it's worth, it's silly to make statements that "It is a breeding ground for terrorists who's only goal in life is to kill Americans, over there, over here, they don't care where it happens," because a) you don't define "it" and b) making generalizations about any country based on the actions a few is just plain ignorant.

Does the fact that my President invaded Iraq mean that I agree with, or am representative of his views? No, thank goodness.[/quoted3eb2bc766] Bravo. I was kind of toung tied with this topic. You summed it up just fine. We dont have to agree. You are right. We have our own home grown terrist right here. Look at all the school shootings. We as a people need to get to know them as a people. I think once you get to know the real folks that live in these countrys. they are no differant than us. All we ever see is what someone eales wants us to see

Everyone has the right to disagree with the war in Iraq, I'm not saying that you are not American if you disagree with it, being able to express yourself and your beliefs is what it means to be American.

However, you should SUPPORT and show RESPECT to the troops, even if you don't agree with why they are fighting over there.

[quote4c7e15dcdb="A Hart"][quote4c7e15dcdb="Stroid"]sorry you never said hate americans just kill americans[/quote4c7e15dcdb]

You are an American! And I would venture to say you don't want another 9-11 to happen either! Do you think I'm wrong for supporting OUR President and OUR country or do you think I am wrong for thinking that once again the bi-partisan government has tied the hands of our troops who would damn well would have taken care of business years ago if they were allowed to do that they are trained to do? Ya know what, screw it. You think I'm a hater, that's cool. You have that right. Our leaders and military made sure you have that right![/quote4c7e15dcdb]

Not one sain person wants anothe 9.11.
I guess that some people just think you can combat force by force only, and that's ok, as long as they don't become haters of the other ppl. Just that there are other ways, without killing thousands.
I still think the whole Irak war was setup from the inside roll lust for power can do many things...

[quote95be49a26b="A Hart"]I suppose not actually being from this country you feel like you have the outside perspective on things. And that's fine. My opinion is coming from actually having email conversations with actual soldiers who are there.

It is a breeding ground for terrorists who's only goal in life is to kill Americans, over there, over here, they don't care where it happens.
So I am supporting the people who are trying to keep the shit out of this country. If you love this country so much why are you against that?

And Clinton, wtf, did you ever hear of White Water?[/quote95be49a26b]

How many Americans were the Iraqis (or anyone else in Iraq) pre March 2003 killing?

None.

Now that they're over there and being killed, all of a sudden they are "protecting this country and its freedoms" and their only goal is to kill Americans?

[quote17eeeefb01="A Hart"]
Do you think I'm wrong for supporting OUR President and OUR country or do you think I am wrong for thinking that once again the bi-partisan government has tied the hands of our troops who would damn well would have taken care of business years ago if they were allowed to do that they are trained to do? Ya know what, screw it. You think I'm a hater, that's cool. You have that right. Our leaders and military made sure you have that right![/quote17eeeefb01]

I think we just think differently. After a while I cant just keep believing the information Im fed from the media. I can make my own judgements and look at a president's progress. Tell me one good thing bush has done since hes been in office.

Lets see Id say getting the taliban and al quida on the run in Afghanistan. But yet again still no Bin Laden. And Bush decided to invest troops into Iraq with Bin Laden still at large. Even better he used faulty intelligence and disregarded overwhelming evidence against his claims that Iraq had Wmd's.

And to top that off he hasnt figured out a exit strategy while a once stable country now slips into a bloody civil war. As gas prices continue to rise and the mid east falls under foreign US occupation you can only imagine an insecure gloabl security plan.

If you still support him and his ill fated policies you are more then welcome to as this is a free country. Im just thankful we have a 2 term limit.

[quote60b6c46a51="theysayjump"][quote60b6c46a51="A Hart"]I suppose not actually being from this country you feel like you have the outside perspective on things. And that's fine. My opinion is coming from actually having email conversations with actual soldiers who are there.

It is a breeding ground for terrorists who's only goal in life is to kill Americans, over there, over here, they don't care where it happens.
So I am supporting the people who are trying to keep the shit out of this country. If you love this country so much why are you against that?

And Clinton, wtf, did you ever hear of White Water?[/quote60b6c46a51]

How many Americans were the Iraqis (or anyone else in Iraq) pre March 2003 killing?
None.

Now that they're over there and being killed, all of a sudden they are "protecting this country and its freedoms" and their only goal is to kill Americans?[/quote60b6c46a51]

USS Cole?

[quote2f0fe93730="A Hart"][quote2f0fe93730="theysayjump"][quote2f0fe93730="A Hart"]I suppose not actually being from this country you feel like you have the outside perspective on things. And that's fine. My opinion is coming from actually having email conversations with actual soldiers who are there.

It is a breeding ground for terrorists who's only goal in life is to kill Americans, over there, over here, they don't care where it happens.
So I am supporting the people who are trying to keep the shit out of this country. If you love this country so much why are you against that?

And Clinton, wtf, did you ever hear of White Water?[/quote2f0fe93730]

How many Americans were the Iraqis (or anyone else in Iraq) pre March 2003 killing?
None.

Now that they're over there and being killed, all of a sudden they are "protecting this country and its freedoms" and their only goal is to kill Americans?[/quote2f0fe93730]

USS Cole?[/quote2f0fe93730]

Yup you got me there.

An attack on the USS Cole that happened in a different country by a terrorist group that has nothing to do with Iraq.

I feel like an idiot now.

[quote130f78e73b="A Hart"][quote130f78e73b="theysayjump"]How many Americans were the Iraqis (or anyone else in Iraq) pre March 2003 killing?
None.

Now that they're over there and being killed, all of a sudden they are "protecting this country and its freedoms" and their only goal is to kill Americans?[/quote130f78e73b]

USS Cole?[/quote130f78e73b]
USS cole was Al qaeda, not iraq. Hussein and bin laden weren't exactly best friends either.

[quoteed25d9041d="A Hart"][quoteed25d9041d="theysayjump"][quoteed25d9041d="A Hart"]I suppose not actually being from this country you feel like you have the outside perspective on things. And that's fine. My opinion is coming from actually having email conversations with actual soldiers who are there.

It is a breeding ground for terrorists who's only goal in life is to kill Americans, over there, over here, they don't care where it happens.
So I am supporting the people who are trying to keep the shit out of this country. If you love this country so much why are you against that?

And Clinton, wtf, did you ever hear of White Water?[/quoteed25d9041d]

How many Americans were the Iraqis (or anyone else in Iraq) pre March 2003 killing?
None.

Now that they're over there and being killed, all of a sudden they are "protecting this country and its freedoms" and their only goal is to kill Americans?[/quoteed25d9041d]

USS Cole?[/quoteed25d9041d]

No, Sudan was responsible.
http//www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17598388/

Have at it folks! Sleep well tonight under the security and freedom that you are provided.

[quote4a5a60c4b2="A Hart"]Have at it folks! Sleep well tonight under the security and freedom that you are provided.[/quote4a5a60c4b2]

other countries that are not at war have the same security of which you speak

[quoted1937a4fea="A Hart"][quoted1937a4fea="Stroid"]sorry you never said hate americans just kill americans[/quoted1937a4fea]

You are an American! And I would venture to say you don't want another 9-11 to happen either! Do you think I'm wrong for supporting OUR President and OUR country or do you think I am wrong for thinking that once again the bi-partisan government has tied the hands of our troops who would damn well would have taken care of business years ago if they were allowed to do that they are trained to do? Ya know what, screw it. You think I'm a hater, that's cool. You have that right. Our leaders and military made sure you have that right![/quoted1937a4fea]So are our troops trained to kill thousands of civilians in a nuclear air strike? My problem is with what you said in regards to the middle east being a breeding ground for people that want to kill americans. To me that is just ignorant and completely ridiculous. I never once said a word about thinking you are wrong for supporting OUR President and OUR country you are entitled to your own opinion.

Iraq didn't bomb the USS Cole. al-Qaeda (sp?) did. It's been pretty well proven that, bad as Saddam was, he had no love for bin Laden or al-Q. [b8289e13b7a](EDIT)[/b8289e13b7a] Crap, I see this was already addressed. That's what I get for starting a response and getting interrupted...

Speaking as a cavalry troop on the ground during the first Gulf War, I'm going to risk giving my $0.02...

I voted for Bush. Both times. I supported the war in Afghanistan AND Iraq. Saddam needed to be overthrown. If any of you had ever spent time in-country and saw with your own eyes what he did [i8289e13b7a]on a daily basis[/i8289e13b7a] to his own people, you probably would too. I hated the SOB, and the biggest complaint from those of us in Gulf War I is that they stopped us from getting him then. My cavalry regiment was a day out of Baghdad and ready to move in when we got the call to stop. We were pissed, to say the least. Then to add insult to injury, after the ceasefire we had to sit in an oil refinery a kilometer or so outside of Al-Samawa and watch helplessly as Iraqi gunships and execution squads slaughtered old men, women and children and dumped their bodies into mass graves. Our hands were tied unless we were attacked directly, which Saddam's forces were very careful not to do, consider the ass-pounding our unit had just given them in 3 days of ground combat.

All of my experience with the Iraqi people, including during this war, is they overwhelmingly supported the US troops and the overthrow of Saddam. The media is reluctant to show just how much they loved us over there. Just ask any US solder. The people are certainly growing weary of the insurgent violence, no doubt, but by-and-large they don't blame the US for it. It's part of their culture, and always has been. The only reason it was kept in check during Saddam's reign was because Saddam had a monopoly on brutality in Iraq. However I think many Iraqis will tell you that they lived in greater fear of Saddam than they do with the current insurgencies. US troops will NOT be as brutal as Saddam in putting down rebellions, therefore the insurgents know they can get away with it.

Now, all that said, the management of the war has been a total catastrophe. While I supported Bush, and believe that he believed he was doing the right thing, he's ultimately responsible for the failures in Iraq and thus deserves a lot of the heat he's getting. He's blindly loyal to incompetent or zealous advisors who've led the country into an unwinnable war. As soon as Saddam was captured, we should have set a timetable for withdrawal and forced the Iraqi government to step up and take control of their country. However we couldn't immediately leave them high-and-dry after destroying much of their infrastructure, either.

[quoteacb719949c="A Hart"]Plus if you are an American I don't see how this applies to you.[/quoteacb719949c]

My aunts, uncles and cousins live in Lebanon and are not Americans. Last I checked, they were far more concerned with living a happy, safe life supporting their families rather than killing anyone...

This paragraph was taken from this article...http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_no-fly_zones

Seems really similar to Germany(The Nazis) sinking ships before we entered WW2....


In the aftermath of Operation Desert Fox during December 1998, Iraq announced it would no longer respect the no-fly zones and resumed its efforts in shooting down Allied aircraft. Saddam Hussein offered a $14,000 reward to anyone who could accomplish this task, but no manned aircraft were ever shot down by Iraq. Airstrikes by the British and Americans against Iraqi claimed anti-aircraft and military targets continued weekly over the next few years. But the fact is that the well hidden and mobile Iraqi air defence was able to frustrate any efforts to effectively to target them so USA and UK resorted to targeting and attacking Iraqi civilian infrastructure.

[quoteb2347a62ea="box86rowh"]This paragraph was taken from this article...http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_no-fly_zones

Seems really similar to Germany(The Nazis) sinking ships before we entered WW2....


In the aftermath of Operation Desert Fox during December 1998, Iraq announced it would no longer respect the no-fly zones and resumed its efforts in shooting down Allied aircraft. Saddam Hussein offered a $14,000 reward to anyone who could accomplish this task, but no manned aircraft were ever shot down by Iraq. Airstrikes by the British and Americans against Iraqi claimed anti-aircraft and military targets continued weekly over the next few years. But the fact is that the well hidden and mobile Iraqi air defence was able to frustrate any efforts to effectively to target them so USA and UK resorted to targeting and attacking Iraqi civilian infrastructure.[/quoteb2347a62ea]

Even a single citation in that paragraph would add to it's credibility. The fact that the entire article is up for review for it's neutrality speaks volumes about sourcing Wikipedia.

[quote2b32a882b5="box86rowh"]This paragraph was taken from this article...http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_no-fly_zones

Seems really similar to Germany(The Nazis) sinking ships before we entered WW2....


In the aftermath of Operation Desert Fox during December 1998, Iraq announced it would no longer respect the no-fly zones and resumed its efforts in shooting down Allied aircraft. Saddam Hussein offered a $14,000 reward to anyone who could accomplish this task, but no manned aircraft were ever shot down by Iraq. Airstrikes by the British and Americans against Iraqi claimed anti-aircraft and military targets continued weekly over the next few years. But the fact is that the well hidden and mobile Iraqi air defence was able to frustrate any efforts to effectively to target them so USA and UK resorted to targeting and attacking Iraqi civilian infrastructure.[/quote2b32a882b5] I really dont see how this post was relevant to the topic being discussed. Are you trying to justify support for the war by saying that Saddam wanted to reward people if they shot down a plane? How is this relevant? The purpose of your post confuses me.

When I think about the whole mess we've gotten ourselves into I have to wonder

Really, what would happen if we just pulled our troops out. There'd be some kind of civil war, things would eventually calm down with some group in power, then use money we would have been using to fund the war to fund the rebuilding of the infrastructure. Hopefully that would be enough to have a semi-decent relationship with whichever group took power.

I don't see terror attacks against the US coming from Iraq if we pulled out. They never did before, they wouldn't now.

I know I'm not up to date on most of what is actually happening there lately, I don't know the names of whatever insurgent groups. My hope is that with the US gone, the insurgents would be more likely to calm down as to attacking their own people directly.

[quote5200f2e44b="cubbieco"]When I think about the whole mess we've gotten ourselves into I have to wonder

Really, what would happen if we just pulled our troops out. There'd be some kind of civil war, things would eventually calm down with some group in power, then use money we would have been using to fund the war to fund the rebuilding of the infrastructure. Hopefully that would be enough to have a semi-decent relationship with whichever group took power.

I don't see terror attacks against the US coming from Iraq if we pulled out. They never did before, they wouldn't now.

I know I'm not up to date on most of what is actually happening there lately, I don't know the names of whatever insurgent groups. My hope is that with the US gone, the insurgents would be more likely to calm down as to attacking their own people directly.[/quote5200f2e44b]
Not so. Civil wars have rages for decades in other countries, virtually destroying them and resulting in millions of innocent casualties. Look at several countries in Africa for examples.

Iraq has always been a hot-bed of incompatible religious factions. Sunni and Shiite Muslims are like oil & water, then you have the Turks in the north along with the large secular population who are often caught in the middle and harassed by the extremists from all sides because they aren't dogmatic enough. Then you have the fundamentalists from Iran, Syria, and surrounding countries who were never allowed in Iraq under Saddam but now have gained a foothold and will continue to try to exert fundamentalist control over opposing factions and secular institutions. They're using the US invasion as their excuse, but you'll notice that the insurgents target and kill far more Iraqi civilians than they do US soldiers and interests. They target mosques of the opposing factions, public places like malls and schools, and Iraqi police stations and recruits. There is no reason to believe that will stop when the US pulls out, in fact it will likely increase. The only thing that kept it in check before was a secular dictatorship that brutally put down any form of uprising or factional control. Saddam was a megalomaniac, and demanded total control over his country. This is the only argument against the removal of Saddam that carries any weight IMO, however it fails to acknowledge the brutality -- often arbitrary -- that Saddam exercised against hundreds of thousands of innocent people. I saw it first hand, therefore it's near and dear to my heart. Saddam had to be removed. I don't oppose the war or his overthrow, but I do fault the administration for shortsighted planning and a bungled post-war operation.

There is no way we can maintain total security in Iraq, for the simple reason that we will not exercise the brutality of the Saddam regime, and the insurgency knows this. They're using our own values against us, and we cannot compromise those values. Therefore we need to get out. It's a cultural problem indicative of the region and one the Iraqi government has to deal with.

I also take exception to the common misconception that we're an "illegal occupation." An occupying force is one that moves in to overthrow a government and [i5200f2e44b]continues to run the country in absence of a government afterwards.[/i5200f2e44b] We want no part of running Iraq, we're just trying to get it stable so that we don't wind up with another Saddam in charge. Obviously we want to maintain diplomatic favor with them, and certainly expect concessions with regards to oil and other Iraqi exports. No kidding anybody there, but given the price we've paid I don't think that's an unfair expectation. And in fact the current Iraqi government often complains that we're not doing enough, and vigorously oppose a strict timetable on a complete US withdrawal. They know they're going to have a tough time without us. But at some point we have to draw a line and say we've done enough, it's in your hands now. So in that regard I do support plans for a staged withdrawal over the next couple years, and Iraq is just going to have to get on the ball and deal with their issues.

I did not vote for President Bush!
I do support the troops over there, But I do not think we should have our troops and manpower over there!

I saw on the news yesterday that the cleanup after that huge devastating tornado in Kansas would take way longer than expected because all of the equipment and much of the manpower were in IRAQ!!!

What is up with THAT!!!!!

[quote35960594b7="SonTenshinhan"]Just because you oppose a war based on a lie means that you some how are disrespecting our troops? It's the people who are fighting to get our troops out of Iraq that are the ones that really care about them. In the same way, it's the people that are most upset about the events that have been occurring since '03 that care about the country the most. The most unpatriotic thing one could do would be to ignore the current situation and blindly advocate every random move the government makes.. it's just common sense.

And in all respect to the OP, Bush's approval rating reached a steady 80–90% for several months after the 9/11 attacks. It's no more of a surprise that Bush kept his support as long as he did than the fact that his administration was able to get as far as they did. Those assholes that criticize the American public for reelecting Bush, are just that, assholes, if not hypocrites at the very least.

Oh yeah, and if you want to be pissed about something, be pissed about the fact that over half a million innocent Iraqi's have died as a direct result of the overthrow of Saddam. Over 100k in the initial bombings.. Numbers like that just kinda make the American loses seem much less significant.[/quote35960594b7]

Very well said! I struggle everyday trying to figure out how people can be such idiots to think that if you don't support the war you somehow don't "support the troops." It makes NO SENSE whatsoever, and just proves how the "support the war or leave the country" people don't know what they're talking about. I had the displeasure of being in a conservative household with Fox on and they showed a protest of the anti-war/bush activists and some pro-war people trying to counter-demonstrate. The headline was something like Anti-war protests Interupted by Supporters of our Troops. I mean... I almost feel like I'm dumbing myself down to even try to figure out how they can be so obtuse.

And I love your definition of patriotism, the real (original) definition of patriotism that if your government is denying you or anyone else life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness that it is our patriotic duty to rebel against the government until they end the actions/policies in question (in this case the war in Iraq).

And yes, I totally paraphrased the master Howard Zinn in this post.

Impeach Bush and Cheney!

[quote35960594b7="A Hart"]Have at it folks! Sleep well tonight under the security and freedom that you are provided.[/quote35960594b7]

lol Reminds me of Rudy's quote the other day that if we elected a Democrat in 08 we would bring on another 9-11. Why do they always resort to fear mongering and sensationalism?

[quotefd92ccdec5="dmorris68"]
I also take exception to the common misconception that we're an "illegal occupation." An occupying force is one that moves in to overthrow a government and [ifd92ccdec5]continues to run the country in absence of a government afterwards.[/ifd92ccdec5] We want no part of running Iraq, we're just trying to get it stable so that we don't wind up with another Saddam in charge. Obviously we want to maintain diplomatic favor with them, and certainly expect concessions with regards to oil and other Iraqi exports. No kidding anybody there, but given the price we've paid I don't think that's an unfair expectation. And in fact the current Iraqi government often complains that we're not doing enough, and vigorously oppose a strict timetable on a complete US withdrawal. They know they're going to have a tough time without us. But at some point we have to draw a line and say we've done enough, it's in your hands now. So in that regard I do support plans for a staged withdrawal over the next couple years, and Iraq is just going to have to get on the ball and deal with their issues.[/quotefd92ccdec5]

Agree with most of what you said but I am against a US pullout as of now. With an alquida presense already in IRaq I would not want it to turn into the new Afghanistan where muslims worldwide meet for terror training and deploy extreme islamic law onto the region. Since Bush has screwed just about everyhting else up I want him to have no part of the exit strategy. It should wait until someon else is in office. We also need to get a UN force there and on the ground. Iraq is a hotbed and if we left now it be even worse.

http/" alt=""/img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/Godrockdj/forums/GoingNoWhere.jpg[/img7021f74418]

[quote48d2b22ef1="Godrockdj"]http/" alt=""/img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/Godrockdj/forums/GoingNoWhere.jpg[/img48d2b22ef1][/quote48d2b22ef1]

reminds me of Bush's exit strategy route.

http/" alt=""/img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/UrFuxed/1178764903861.gif[/img6d5d09c4df]

BALLIN