GOD RULES. - FreeiPodGuide Forums

stueybaby17

26-03-2007 10:10:14

[quote05f800cd31="JUNIOR6886"][quote05f800cd31="JennyWren"]I think if I hadn't been raised Catholic, I would still believe in God. How screwy is that?[/quote05f800cd31]

Not so screwy these days.... More and more people who are raised in a catholic environment eventually become disgusted by it and become either atheist or agnostic.[/quote05f800cd31]

What got me is how catholics believe that they are the only right religion. And how everything that the church believes in is right. And that pisses me off. I used to get into very heated conversations with my religion teachers (usually nuns) about catholic doctrine and beliefs. I've had many yelling battles back and forth about stuff like confessions. That is one of my all time pet pieves. What is the point? If god is willing to and will forgive your sins as long as you are sorry then why do you have to go and tell the priest. I hated that, but for years and years I went to confessions anyway. Finally I just got sick of it and during a time when they put you in a room and then expect everybody to go to confessions I went in to the confessional and the priest started doing his thing and, "I'm like sorry I dont' believe in this. I'm just comming in because all the teachers stare at you and expect you to come in and confess" Well I talked to that priest for about an hour and a half about it. And you know what?? About 2 weeks later he left the vocation!!! I was shocked. lol

But I hated getting into fights with teachers about being a catiferia catholic. They used to always tell me about how you can't pick what you want to believe. You have to believe it all to really be catholic.

Why do you have to go to church to worship God? He can hear your prayers anywhere, right? So why do we have to go everyweek to church?

Fasting during lent??? That is a bunch of bullshit. There is nowhere in the bible that says anything about it. It was something that the church made up because of two reasons. 1. To get people to eat fish so the fishermen got some more income because they were poor. 2. People at the time had iron definciencys and eating less meat and more fish helped them.
But what is the point now? To show god you will serve him or something? I dont' believe in that at all, and I make it a point to eat meat everyday that the church says that I'm not supposed to.

Now I dont' know if this is something that my fucked up nun teacher just made up or if it actual religious teaching. (I'm thinking that it's just her) But this drove me off the edge. I was teetering about weather or not I wanted to be catholic and then I just jumped off. This is right after my aunt died from cancer, my teacher goes off on how bad stuff happens to bad people. Like people who do bad things will get sick and whatnot. Needless to say I Fucking flipped about that. I actually told her that she should die and go to hell for saying that because my aunt was a great person! And I got up and left.

I could go on and on about this, I've had conversations last for trips that go through different states, but I dont' feel like typing it all.

Killer722

26-03-2007 10:20:15

When you people stopped practicing Catholicism, did you try reading up on other major religions, or did you just stop believing all together.

stueybaby17

26-03-2007 10:25:34

[quote0994536e9f="Killer722"]When you people stopped practicing Catholicism, did you try reading up on other major religions, or did you just stop believing all together.[/quote0994536e9f]

I didn't try to. All religions have their problems. There is something from many religions (except maybe scientology lol ) that I believe in. And I dont' want to deal with the same things that I had to for being catholic.

I decided that I was just going to believe what I want to believe.

JUNIOR6886

26-03-2007 10:59:58

[quotead6a26ce42="stueybaby17"]What got me is how catholics believe that they are the only right religion. And how everything that the church believes in is right. And that pisses me off.[/quotead6a26ce42]

Dont you think it would be kind of odd if catholics didnt believe only their religion was the only right one? didnt Jeebus say "No one comes to the Father except through me"

[quotead6a26ce42="stueybaby17"]If god is willing to and will forgive your sins as long as you are sorry then why do you have to go and tell the priest. I hated that, but for years and years I went to confessions anyway..[/quotead6a26ce42]

Aww come on, too embrassed to tell the priest your transgressions? At least they dont make people BUY forgiveness for their sins via sale of indulgences anymore D

[quotead6a26ce42="stueybaby17"]Why do you have to go to church to worship God? He can hear your prayers anywhere, right? So why do we have to go everyweek to church?[/quotead6a26ce42]

The fundamental difference between catholics and every other denomination of christianity is that faith alone wont get you into heaven
you must also do good works such as putting a good portion of your money into the collection sack during mass and doing whatever the pope askes to fattening his pockets.

[quotead6a26ce42="stueybaby17"]Fasting during lent??? That is a bunch of bullshit. There is nowhere in the bible that says anything about it. It was something that the church made up because of two reasons. 1. To get people to eat fish so the fishermen got some more income because they were poor. 2. People at the time had iron definciencys and eating less meat and more fish helped them.
But what is the point now? To show god you will serve him or something? I dont' believe in that at all, and I make it a point to eat meat everyday that the church says that I'm not supposed to.[/quotead6a26ce42]

Yeah you could be Mr Negativity and say "the curch twists, turns and downright makes up words in the bible to fit their own needs. Its simply another tool to control the masses." (

OR

you can think the correct way.
The bible changes because god has a new message to help the current generation of christians deal with their ever changing society D

[quotead6a26ce42="stueybaby17"]This is right after my aunt died from cancer, my teacher goes off on how bad stuff happens to bad people. Like people who do bad things will get sick and whatnot. Needless to say I Fucking flipped about that. I actually told her that she should die and go to hell for saying that because my aunt was a great person! And I got up and left.[/quotead6a26ce42]

Romans 828 -"And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to His purpose for them."
now isnt that comforting?

egyptianruin

26-03-2007 11:08:05

[quote24e403f44d="nytrate"]you can be agnostic and still believe in the general concept of "god", just not that he is some sort of anthropomorphic being.

Agnosticism is often misunderstood, as clearly displayed here. It gets lumped in with atheism all too often by the misinformed and it gives a bad name to all us agnostics.[/quote24e403f44d]

Aye Aye! People look confused when I say Im agnostic. They act like I have 666 written on my forehead. People often tend to confuse my belief structure with Wicca too for some odd reason ? I guess its the whole I cant define a higher power thing... makes my family very upset too but at least my husband understands me and doesnt pressure me to be anything other than who I am (or what I believe) I think agnostics are often confused with athiests who are often confused with devil worshippers, lol. Some people just do not understand what being agnostic means.

egyptianruin

26-03-2007 11:12:39

[quote0b0512a5c9]
Fasting during lent??? That is a bunch of bullshit. There is nowhere in the bible that says anything about it. It was something that the church made up because of two reasons. 1. To get people to eat fish so the fishermen got some more income because they were poor. 2. People at the time had iron definciencys and eating less meat and more fish helped them.
But what is the point now? To show god you will serve him or something? I dont' believe in that at all, and I make it a point to eat meat everyday that the church says that I'm not supposed to.[/quote0b0512a5c9]

LMAO I too was raised Catholic, but now Im agnostic. My mom is sad about it because she thinks I dont believe in anything (sigh) I cant explain the term agnostic to her without her telling me I might go to hell, which makes me laugh and then that makes it worse. My husband does the whole lent thing, he's "Catholic" too but not once have I seen him go to Church except for his grandmothers funeral. Before my husband I dated a Jehovahs Witness - that in my opinion was the most infuriating belief structure I have ever witnessed. I tried to respect his beliefs but he didnt respect mine and when he told me my video games were ways of the devil I had to end it.

stueybaby17

26-03-2007 11:13:32

[quoted4429b250b="JUNIOR6886"][quoted4429b250b="stueybaby17"]What got me is how catholics believe that they are the only right religion. And how everything that the church believes in is right. And that pisses me off.[/quoted4429b250b]

[ud4429b250b]Dont you think it would be kind of odd if catholics didnt believe only their religion was the only right one? [/ud4429b250b] didnt Jeebus say "No one comes to the Father except through me"

[quoted4429b250b="stueybaby17"]If god is willing to and will forgive your sins as long as you are sorry then why do you have to go and tell the priest. I hated that, but for years and years I went to confessions anyway..[/quoted4429b250b]

[ud4429b250b] Aww come on, too embrassed to tell the priest your transgressions? [/ud4429b250b] [bd4429b250b] At least they dont make people BUY forgiveness for their sins via sale of indulgences anymore D [/bd4429b250b]

[quoted4429b250b="stueybaby17"]Why do you have to go to church to worship God? He can hear your prayers anywhere, right? So why do we have to go everyweek to church?[/quoted4429b250b]

The fundamental difference between catholics and every other denomination of christianity is that faith alone wont get you into heaven
you must also do good works such as [bd4429b250b] putting a good portion of your money into the collection sack during mass and doing whatever the pope askes to fattening his pockets.[/bd4429b250b]

[quoted4429b250b="stueybaby17"]Fasting during lent??? That is a bunch of bullshit. There is nowhere in the bible that says anything about it. It was something that the church made up because of two reasons. 1. To get people to eat fish so the fishermen got some more income because they were poor. 2. People at the time had iron definciencys and eating less meat and more fish helped them.
But what is the point now? To show god you will serve him or something? I dont' believe in that at all, and I make it a point to eat meat everyday that the church says that I'm not supposed to.[/quoted4429b250b]

Yeah you could be Mr Negativity and say "the curch twists, turns and downright makes up words in the bible to fit their own needs. Its simply another tool to control the masses." (

OR

[ud4429b250b]you can think the correct way.
The bible changes because god has a new message to help the current generation of christians deal with their ever changing society D [/ud4429b250b]

[quoted4429b250b="stueybaby17"]This is right after my aunt died from cancer, my teacher goes off on how bad stuff happens to bad people. Like people who do bad things will get sick and whatnot. Needless to say I Fucking flipped about that. I actually told her that she should die and go to hell for saying that because my aunt was a great person! And I got up and left.[/quoted4429b250b]

Romans 828 -"And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to His purpose for them."
[bd4429b250b]now isnt that comforting?[/bd4429b250b][/quoted4429b250b]

You know with your responses I can't quite tell if you are trying to be a dick or if you are agreeing with me. it seems like you are trying to be a dick, but in a way you are kinda supporting me.

Underline is against me, bold is for me.

I dont' care about telling a priest about my trangressions. I just dont' understand why we have to tell him (I've been told many times I just dont' agree with it).

And I know about doing good works. I've questioned people in the church before and got all these answers. But what does going to church really do? Why not put that time to better use? A soup kitchen or something else to help the community is better than going to church to "praise" god. And you right all we are doing to give money is make the church richer. You should see the rectory where the priest lives at my church (I guess you probably woulnd't really call it that because I havn't been there for a long time). It's the best of the best, what else do you do with all that money??

I really want to know more about the other books of the bible that the church did not put into the cannon. I truely believe that there are more that have been hidden or destroyed by the church.

JennyWren

26-03-2007 11:30:51

I can't take it anymore!!! The apostrophe in DON'T comes BEFORE the t NOT AFTER.

</rant>

nytrate

26-03-2007 11:35:20

I think it's downright silly for anyone to be glued to a particular faith without educating themselves on other world religions.

That means you would believe in anything just as long as you were brought up around it. It means the only determining factor on what you believe in is where you were born and whom you were born to. Isn't that ridiculous?

I have no problem with people of faith as long as they don't try and convert me or legislate their beliefs...unfortunately this is exactly what they try to do. Look up the definition of evangelism sometime. The very definition of the word is appalling when you think about how it's applied.

What really boggles me is the missionaries who have the nerve to go to third world countries and force Jesus down their throats as the price for humanitarian aid. The funny thing is that these peoples' religions are probably much older than Christianity. It's deplorable.

Christianity sects are the only ones I know of that incorporate evangelicalism into their beliefs. I could be wrong and I'm sure there are others that have this...but for the most part Christians are the only ones that push it.

If you believe in something, fine. Believe all you want. But spending your life trying to convince others to believe is arrogant.

tylerc

26-03-2007 11:36:34

[quote8ab1d2fbbd="JennyWren"]I can't take it anymore!!! The apostrophe in DON'T comes BEFORE the t NOT AFTER.

</rant>[/quote8ab1d2fbbd]

That doesn't bother me nearly as much as when people say "your" for "you're".

stueybaby17

26-03-2007 11:46:08

[quote1980cef820="JennyWren"]I can't take it anymore!!! The apostrophe in DON'T comes BEFORE the t NOT AFTER.

</rant>[/quote1980cef820]

When i type too fast the ' comes after the t but I know it's supposed to be don't but I don't go back and change it if I mess it up. It takes too long and people get the point

stueybaby17

26-03-2007 11:48:07

scream12342

26-03-2007 14:27:24

[quote93d6648d4c="egyptianruin"][quote93d6648d4c]
Fasting during lent??? That is a bunch of bullshit. There is nowhere in the bible that says anything about it. It was something that the church made up because of two reasons. 1. To get people to eat fish so the fishermen got some more income because they were poor. 2. People at the time had iron definciencys and eating less meat and more fish helped them.
But what is the point now? To show god you will serve him or something? I dont' believe in that at all, and I make it a point to eat meat everyday that the church says that I'm not supposed to.[/quote93d6648d4c]

LMAO I too was raised Catholic, but now Im agnostic. My mom is sad about it because she thinks I dont believe in anything (sigh) I cant explain the term agnostic to her without her telling me I might go to hell, which makes me laugh and then that makes it worse. My husband does the whole lent thing, he's "Catholic" too but not once have I seen him go to Church except for his grandmothers funeral. Before my husband I dated a [i93d6648d4c][b93d6648d4c]Jehovahs Witness[/b93d6648d4c][/i93d6648d4c] - that in my opinion was the most infuriating belief structure I have ever witnessed. I tried to respect his beliefs but he didnt respect mine and when he told me my video games were ways of the devil I had to end it.[/quote93d6648d4c]

I definitely would have to agree with ya about the Jehovah's Witness thing. One of the oddest religions. I am considerate towards them, but it's just very different. I'm a religious person, Baptist. Some churches are just crazy though. I'll agree with all of you guys on that one. For example, there are some churches in my town twice the size of a hotel. I don't see how someone could get something out of that...

Godrockdj

26-03-2007 14:41:26

I'm not a religious person ;)

nytrate

26-03-2007 14:41:46

egyptian - you're agnostic and tried to date a Jehovah's Witness? Wow. Their mission is to convert as many people as possible. I can't imagine that working from the starting gate.

Religion is basically the only main filter I have on people I date aside from intelligence. It sounds stupid to say, but it's important to me. I know that if I go out with an overly religious person, especially one who is self righteous about it, I won't last 30 minutes before starting a debate up and that's usually the end of it.

I'd take a fat, geeky person with an open mind over a bible nut that looked like a hot movie star any day of the week

Wolfeman

26-03-2007 14:42:43

[quoteda69169352="nytrate"]I'd take a fat, geeky person[/quoteda69169352]
dance2 cheer dance

nytrate

26-03-2007 14:43:24

hahahah you know it

scream12342

26-03-2007 14:44:31

[quoted31b5460cc="Godrockdj"]I'm not a religious person ;)[/quoted31b5460cc]

It's super hard to tell sarcasm over the internet.

Wolfeman

26-03-2007 14:46:28

I am not religious but I am afraid of God...

nytrate

26-03-2007 14:46:40

actually I dated someone a few months ago that fit the description. Highly unlikely looking pair. Met at a party, total nerd (but the smart kind) and our first conversation was on Kierkegaard. That's all I really needed, that supersedes hotness and actually creates it.

Godrockdj

26-03-2007 14:48:48

[quotedfac2330c5="scream12342"][quotedfac2330c5="Godrockdj"]I'm not a religious person ;)[/quotedfac2330c5]

It's super hard to tell sarcasm over the internet.[/quotedfac2330c5]

No sarcasm at all D I'm not 'religious' by the meaning of the word that's being tossed around here

Wolfeman

26-03-2007 14:54:44

My last GF and I broke up because she became ultra religious and it blows. There was no place for me...

XiORE

26-03-2007 14:56:42

[quote43b7924808="Tholek"]He saw the sexual terms thread.

j/k ;)[/quote43b7924808]

LOL, i used to be a heavy christian, now i've learned to praise god liThe Big Cheeseli, in a manner of my own i suppose, don't need to go to church to praise the lord, that's hollywood, you can praise him in your own home !!

JUNIOR6886

26-03-2007 15:40:55

[quote01ad895013="nytrate"]I think it's downright silly for anyone to be glued to a particular faith without educating themselves on other world religions.

That means you would believe in anything just as long as you were brought up around it. It means the only determining factor on what you believe in is where you were born and whom you were born to. Isn't that ridiculous?

I have no problem with people of faith as long as they don't try and convert me or legislate their beliefs...unfortunately this is exactly what they try to do. Look up the definition of evangelism sometime. The very definition of the word is appalling when you think about how it's applied.

What really boggles me is the missionaries who have the nerve to go to third world countries and force Jesus down their throats as the price for humanitarian aid. The funny thing is that these peoples' religions are probably much older than Christianity. It's deplorable.

Christianity sects are the only ones I know of that incorporate evangelicalism into their beliefs. I could be wrong and I'm sure there are others that have this...but for the most part Christians are the only ones that push it.

If you believe in something, fine. Believe all you want. But spending your life trying to convince others to believe is arrogant.[/quote01ad895013]

lol the evangelism part reminded of this

http//i20.photobucket.com/albums/b219/GoldenArmsDT/jesus_lol2.jpg[" alt=""/img01ad895013]

[quote01ad895013="Killer722"]When you people stopped practicing Catholicism, did you try reading up on other major religions, or did you just stop believing all together.[/quote01ad895013]

Well in highschool i read up on Islam (didnt like what i read), Buddhism(which is actually a philosophy not a religion...) and satanism.

I dont think its just catholisim/christianity I have a problem with. I dont like the concept of religion at all.

zr2152

26-03-2007 22:46:06

[quotefcc61ec11a="nytrate"]I think it's downright silly for anyone to be glued to a particular faith without educating themselves on other world religions.

That means you would believe in anything just as long as you were brought up around it. It means the only determining factor on what you believe in is where you were born and whom you were born to. Isn't that ridiculous?

I have no problem with people of faith as long as they don't try and convert me or legislate their beliefs...unfortunately this is exactly what they try to do. Look up the definition of evangelism sometime. The very definition of the word is appalling when you think about how it's applied.

What really boggles me is the missionaries who have the nerve to go to third world countries and force Jesus down their throats as the price for humanitarian aid. The funny thing is that these peoples' religions are probably much older than Christianity. It's deplorable.

Christianity sects are the only ones I know of that incorporate evangelicalism into their beliefs. I could be wrong and I'm sure there are others that have this...but for the most part Christians are the only ones that push it.

If you believe in something, fine. Believe all you want. But spending your life trying to convince others to believe is arrogant.[/quotefcc61ec11a]

I totally understand what youre saying but I do disagree with you on one thing. Not all Christians are like that. We are normal ppl just like you but Christians have this terrible stereotype of taking a bible with them everywhere they go and throwing it in the face of everyone they meet.

And you know what, that is something that really bothers me about most Christians. But you know what? Im a Christian too and I am normal just like you and MOST ppl on this froum. I struggle with things that you struggle with. I sin and do unmoral/unethical things sometimes but thats our downfall as man.

This world is full of ppl who have this negative view on Christian. Sure ill sit down and have a beer with ya and talk about God and what He's doing in my life and all. And I might even ask you about your religious affiliation and what not. Im not trying to force anything on you. Ive had numerous conversations with ppl over a beer or a cig and I listen. Im not the type of Christian that jumps down ppl's throats and attacks them if they say something that I dont believe in or agree with.

All im saying is just realize that not all Christians are like "omg youre not a Christian, I need to save you or youll go to hell" or "omg youre a lesbian, youre going to hell."

Oh and with the whole missionary thing...wow im actually kind of offended. Do you have any idea what missionaries go through and how they live? They dont QUOTE "force Jesus down their throats as the price for humanitarian aid." Thats is far from what they do. Sure they do it and their intentions are good. Would yo go do a third world country and just give hiumanitarian aid (Im not dissing on you but think about it)? Missionaries go far and beyond their duties as humans to society. Give them a break.

Ive myself have gone to Harrisburg and bought a homeless guy dinner and had a normal conversation with him (sure I brought God into the topic, but could you go buy a homeless guy a meal?).

Im not dissing on you nytrate but I just feel that your perspective is a little off.

Tholek

26-03-2007 23:13:44

[quote773d16e903="nytrate"]It gets lumped in with atheism all too often by the misinformed and it gives a bad name to all us agnostics.[/quote773d16e903]

[quote773d16e903="ilanbg"]Personally, I think accepting agonisticism as your religious belief just means you think not knowing the answer is an answer.

(It's not.)[/quote773d16e903]

[quote773d16e903="egyptianruin"][quote773d16e903="nytrate"]you can be agnostic and still believe in the general concept of "god", just not that he is some sort of anthropomorphic being.

Agnosticism is often misunderstood, as clearly displayed here. It gets lumped in with atheism all too often by the misinformed and it gives a bad name to all us agnostics.[/quote773d16e903]

Aye Aye! People look confused when I say Im agnostic. They act like I have 666 written on my forehead. People often tend to confuse my belief structure with Wicca too for some odd reason ? I guess its the whole I cant define a higher power thing... makes my family very upset too but at least my husband understands me and doesnt pressure me to be anything other than who I am (or what I believe) I think agnostics are often confused with athiests who are often confused with devil worshippers, lol. Some people just do not understand what being agnostic means.[/quote773d16e903]

Technically, by definition, all sane atheists are agnostics, for the fact that a scientifically provable God should be acceptable by a rational mind. However, most people today (at least in my experience) feel agnostics are actively looking for a God (and sometimes falling prey to cults) while atheists are those who don't believe, yet would accept the existence of a God if it could be proven.

LaineD.

27-03-2007 02:35:45

I normally don't get into these discussions because half of the time, people tend to argue with me. So I'll make one thing straight before I go too much further. I'm simply posting what I think. Not what YOU should think.

I grew up as Pentocostal Holliness. (Which is a snake handling church.) You may have seen us on the discovery channel, the church whose preacher forced his wife's hand into a snake bin.

First, I want to say that I knew Brother Glen AND his wife. A.) She was bit by a RACOON WITH RABIES and didn't go to the hospital. B.) Brother Glen hadn't drank anything alcoholic in over FIFTEEN YEARS. And C.) The discovery channel needs to get their facts straight.

Now. A common mistake people make about MY church is the fact that we're "demon worshipers". This is NOT the case. In the King James version of the bible, it says "And ye shall handle serpents with the grace of God." ..Or at least something simular. We followed that. In fact, Pentocostal Holliness (We just call it Holliness) is the only one I know of (personally) that follows the King James bible as closely as it does.

I grew up with problems just like everyone else for being raised with the religion I had. Mostly because it was rare, and half the population in my state is either Baptist or Jehova Witness. So, for a long time, I stopped telling people my religion, ignored the jokes and laughs they told every time they saw the show about it on the discovery channel, and gritted my teeth at the sneers they gave to a man who was like a second grandfather to me.

I've read through every post up until mine, and I've found some things that I agree with. Like for example. I DONT believe you have to go to church to worship God. Personally, I think praying to him, asking his forgiveness when you're ready for it, and reading the bible is enough.

I also agree with the fact that people don't fully understand religions when they discuss them and put them down. I remember the first day me and my husband (who is Baptist) dated. I was hounded by a Jehova Witness asking me questions I didn't want to answer, so when he asked me if I belived in God, I told him he didn't want to know, kept telling him politely that he didn't want to know my beliefs until he finally went away (which was nearly 15mins).

Do I belive in God? Yes. Do I belive in hell? Yes. But at the same time, I also believe in the possibility of reincarnation, limbo, and spirits. In all truth, the possibility of spirits is one of the things I believe in most for my own personal reasons. None of which make me sound sane.

Honestly, I believe that different religious beliefs are based on a mass of people back before recorded history who had an experiance they couldn't explain and so made up a something that sounded logical in order to explain things to themselves as well as others.

Take ancient Romans/Greeks. They believed Zeus was the God of Thunder. Perhaps they heard thunder one day and couldn't explain it, so they made up a story of a higher being getting angry, which caused the sound. Or perhaps their is actual truth to it that no one living today can remember nor find.

The Egyptians believed that cats were the guardians of the underworld. Why? Perhaps they saw a cat pawing the ground of a freshly turned grave or sitting inside a tomb simply looking at the deceased. They couldn't understand the cat's actions, and perhaps made up a reason for it. Or perhaps they couldn't understand how a cat was able to move so quickly and silently, and had to rationalize it.

Either way, I personally believe that almost every religion has some sort of A.) Rationalization or B.) Truth behind it. And yet because I believe that so many things may be possible to happen, may have actually existed, or may have some form of truth behind them.

To me, it's the same thing that applies to urban legends, myths, and stories. Every story as far as legends and myths has some basis of truth behind it. Perhaps Hurculese was simply an unusually strong man hundreds of thousands of years ago. Over the years, as stories often tend to do, things were added to his story of perhaps how he simply found a way to force a fallen tree off of an injured comrade or road. In time, it grew to where he could lift the tree with one finger without breaking a sweat because, as man-kind tend to do, we often stretch the truth out.

Maybe Anubis, God of the Underworld, was a person who looked strange to the Egyptians and perhaps carried the bodies into their resting grounds on the order of a loved member or higher person. Perhaps he vanished one day, and people remembered seeing him carrying off the bodies of the dead. Because they couldn't explain his actions, and because the story was told so many times, he grew into a God.

I also do not think one religion is right over another. Christians believe in God, the Savior. Bhudists worship a little man. Wiccans believe in the powers of nature.. the healing properties of herbs and the like. Catholics (to my limited knowledge of the religion) pray to Marry, Mother of God.

Either way you look at it, almost every religion that believes in spirits, dieties, or multiple Gods worships some sort of figure. Man-kind needs to believe in something that explains things we cannot explain ourselves.

So who is right to say that one religion is better than the other? If you look at it closely, it can actually be assumed that, at one point or another in any religion, we ALL have at least one common view. That there IS a higher power. We may not all call it the same thing, but we believe in it.

Personally, I believe we all believe in the same diety. Some have split the powers that diety has into multiple Gods. Others, have taken the diety and turned it into something they can better understand, such as the forces of nature. It is that fact that we all believe in, or in the posibility, of a higher power that has lead me to believe that, despite different names, rituals, or practices... we all believe in the same thing.

nytrate

27-03-2007 05:16:26

[quote7dcb934e53="nytrate"]Would yo go do a third world country and just give hiumanitarian aid (Im not dissing on you but think about it)?
...
Ive myself have gone to Harrisburg and bought a homeless guy dinner and had a normal conversation with him (sure I brought God into the topic, but could you go buy a homeless guy a meal?).

Im not dissing on you nytrate but I just feel that your perspective is a little off.[/quote7dcb934e53]

Actually, I have. I just don't feel the need to bring it up because it's irrelevant and when I did so I just helped...I didn't try to convert or "save" anyone.

Could I go buy a homeless guy a meal? Who do you think you are, the only one with a heart because you have Jesus? You must really think of yourself as a saint. That is an arrogant question and proves my point. Actually I've spent countless hours volunteering at soup kitchens and once, in Sydney last year, we brought the same homeless man a sandwich every morning that we made in the hostel and once we took him to the pub with us. He was schizophrenic. He wrote me a poem on our last time seeing him and I still have it.

But now that you mention it...

I also spent a month 2 summers ago with my brother (who's in the Peace Corp) in New Guinea lending a hand and working on some projects (me and my brother helped salvage a bunch of old donated PCs and built a few solid working ones from that and then helped them network it in a town that pretty much had no internet or even computers)

But you see, I don't go mentioning it unless I'm called out because it's usually irrelevant. You called me out, so there you have it.

And the whole time I never tried to force my agnosticism on anyone or even questioned their beliefs. It's wasn't my place and I realized that.

You must feel pretty silly for trying to call me out, huh? Religious nuts are not the only ones with hearts my friend, and I think that conception that they are the only ones that do good just further prove my previous point.

My question to you us...have you done those things without trying to inflict your views on anyone? I think the only difference in what we've both done is that I don't think of myself as a Saint or think that people of other beliefs/faiths don't do those things. To me, that is a pretty huge difference. Sounds like you're real proud of your good deeds, which is great, but it also sounds like you think you're the only one that ever does them...which is somewhere between arrogant and pathetic.

Again, not trying to be mean or immodest but you did just try to call me out on it.

edit if missionaries cared so much, they'd do it without ulterior motives. I'm not saying they don't do good...it's great what they do. help is help, no matter who is helping. But as you made it sound, they're the only ones that do such things. that is very, very far from the truth. I've seen them in action and while they are doing more good than anything regardless of their motives and are probably doing much more than your average lazy American, they're certainly not the only ones who do it. Most others though, respect the culture and don't put their noses in trying to change opinions on their hundreds/thousands of years of spirituality.

nytrate

27-03-2007 05:42:29

btw, great post LaineD. Just to clear some things up...

[quote18b54af191="LaineD"]
Christians believe in God, the Savior. Bhudists worship a little man. Wiccans believe in the powers of nature.. the healing properties of herbs and the like. Catholics (to my limited knowledge of the religion) pray to Marry, Mother of God.
[/quote18b54af191]

Christians' savior is Jesus, the supposed son of God. Catholics are Christians, it's just a subsection of Christianity. Buddhism is a lot more complicated than that, I won't get into a long discussion but it's a very interesting religion to read about.

Most religions worship an anthropomorphic being somehow descended or connected with God. The concept of God pretty much applies across the board, depending on exactly how you look at it.

sandra habina

27-03-2007 06:13:20

Wow very interesting. Alot of good points and opinions spoken.

zr2152

27-03-2007 08:07:30

Nytrate my love,

I wasnt trying to call you out or make you look bad. Im just trying to makre a point when saying that not all Christians are "shove God down your throat" people. No I dont feel like a saint when I do good things. Hell, I feel good-just like every person does when they help someone. I dont beleive that doing good things get you to heaven.

I just feel like people have these views of Christians that make us look bad and ive had enough of it. Im far from where I should be as a christian right now and far from a saint.

See im trying to be as calm as I can about this right now. Im not yellling or eggin you on (as I feel you are doing to me). This is why its been hard for me to talk with people about my religions beliefs because some ppl feel that only their word is right and nothing else. And I hate to say it but I feel like that is the way that you sound too.

Maybe its just the silent tone that there is when having a discussion online. Oh well.

nytrate

27-03-2007 08:53:22

[quote111a51813f="zr2152"]
.
.
See im trying to be as calm as I can about this right now. Im not yellling or eggin you on (as I feel you are doing to me). This is why its been hard for me to talk with people about my religions beliefs because some ppl feel that only their word is right and nothing else. And I hate to say it but I feel like that is the way that you sound too.
[/quote111a51813f]

yet this is what you said

[quote111a51813f="zr2152"][b111a51813f]Would yo go do a third world country and just give hiumanitarian aid (Im not dissing on you but think about it)? [/b111a51813f]
...
Ive myself have gone to Harrisburg and bought a homeless guy dinner and had a normal conversation with him (sure I brought God into the topic,[b111a51813f] but could you go buy a homeless guy a meal?[/b111a51813f]).

Im not dissing on you nytrate but I just feel that your perspective is a little off.[/quote111a51813f]

Uhm....yea. Your quotes which I underlined in bold are ridiculous my friend, I'm sorry. You basically said that since I'm not religious I probably haven't done good deeds like you have. Maybe that's not what you meant, but that is DEFINITELY what you said. And yes, I take great offense to that.

It just blew my mind. I'm not being antagonistic...but I couldn't sit quiet after someone just assumed I or others haven't done good things because we aren't religious. That's infuriating, and is exactly the part of the religious mindset that gets under my skin.

Maybe it's hard to talk about your religious beliefs with people because you are condescending without even knowing it. "but could you buy a homeless man dinner?" LOL. Give me a break, seriously.

zr2152

27-03-2007 09:17:54

[quotececee132dc="nytrate"][quotececee132dc="zr2152"]
.
.
See im trying to be as calm as I can about this right now. Im not yellling or eggin you on (as I feel you are doing to me). This is why its been hard for me to talk with people about my religions beliefs because some ppl feel that only their word is right and nothing else. And I hate to say it but I feel like that is the way that you sound too.
[/quotececee132dc]

yet this is what you said

[quotececee132dc="zr2152"][bcecee132dc]Would yo go do a third world country and just give hiumanitarian aid (Im not dissing on you but think about it)? [/bcecee132dc]
...
Ive myself have gone to Harrisburg and bought a homeless guy dinner and had a normal conversation with him (sure I brought God into the topic,[bcecee132dc] but could you go buy a homeless guy a meal?[/bcecee132dc]).

Im not dissing on you nytrate but I just feel that your perspective is a little off.[/quotececee132dc]

Uhm....yea. Your quotes which I underlined in bold are ridiculous my friend, I'm sorry. You basically said that since I'm not religious I probably haven't done good deeds like you have. Maybe that's not what you meant, but that is DEFINITELY what you said. And yes, I take great offense to that.

It just blew my mind. I'm not being antagonistic...but I couldn't sit quiet after someone just assumed I or others haven't done good things because we aren't religious. That's infuriating, and is exactly the part of the religious mindset that gets under my skin.

Maybe it's hard to talk about your religious beliefs with people because you are condescending without even knowing it. "but could you buy a homeless man dinner?" LOL. Give me a break, seriously.[/quotececee132dc]

What I meant to say, you just took it the wrong way. maybe it was the way that ive typed it. Sorry about that. I never meant to say that just because you are not a christian doesnt mean that you cant buy a homeless guy a dinner.

It came out the wrong way. Maybe its the E-Chattind that does it. Oh well.

Crymson

27-03-2007 11:44:57

[quote20d12f5b6f="Wolfeman"]My last GF and I broke up because she became ultra religious and it blows. There was no place for me...[/quote20d12f5b6f]

same here...

It's a tragedy when religion is used to close one's mind instead of opening it.
(She is muslim)

fawker

27-03-2007 13:08:13

I believe what i want to believe, I don't go shouting around LOL IM CHRISTIAN OR LMAO IM AN ATHEIST (but im all for it)

do you mind telling us what happened

Wolfeman

27-03-2007 13:09:54

[quote3bef1e048d="Crymson"][quote3bef1e048d="Wolfeman"]My last GF and I broke up because she became ultra religious and it blows. There was no place for me...[/quote3bef1e048d]

same here...

It's a tragedy when religion is used to close one's mind instead of opening it.
(She is muslim)[/quote3bef1e048d]
Mine was Jewish. Its crazy how much those 2 religions hate each other when they are so similar shrug

Lets get something straight, Christians are a sub sect of Catholics. Catholics believe in the Father (God), the son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit (candy?). We pray to Mary and consider her like a saint. We are more about the whole picture than just Jesus. We also get food and booze, SUCKAS!!!

Crymson

27-03-2007 13:39:48

[quotec90852a296="Wolfeman"][quotec90852a296="Crymson"][quotec90852a296="Wolfeman"]My last GF and I broke up because she became ultra religious and it blows. There was no place for me...[/quotec90852a296]

same here...

It's a tragedy when religion is used to close one's mind instead of opening it.
(She is muslim)[/quotec90852a296]
Mine was Jewish. Its crazy how much those 2 religions hate each other when they are so similar shrug
[/quotec90852a296]

Truer words were never spoken.

LaineD.

27-03-2007 13:57:32

[quote26eea09fde="nytrate"]btw, great post LaineD. Just to clear some things up...[/quote26eea09fde]

Thank you.

[quote26eea09fde="nytrate"]Christians' savior is Jesus, the supposed son of God.[/quote26eea09fde]

I grew up believing the Jesus and God were the same person, and I still do. Thus why I said God.

[quote26eea09fde="nytrate"]Catholics are Christians, it's just a subsection of Christianity.[/quote26eea09fde]

I agree with the fact that Catholics are a subsection of Christiantiy. Most religions are. But no matter what religion someone has held, if they're a regular church-going person, I've always heard them say "I'm a Christian." which is why, personally, I call religeous people Christians no matter what their faith is.

[quote26eea09fde="nytrate"]Buddhism is a lot more complicated than that, I won't get into a long discussion but it's a very interesting religion to read about.[/quote26eea09fde]

Oh, I know it's much more difficult than that. I was just using the statue of Bhuda (sp?) as an example to what I was trying to say.

[quote26eea09fde="Wolfeman"]We pray to Mary and consider her like a saint.[/quote26eea09fde]

I always wondered why Catholics prayed to Mary. Thank you for that information. Now that I know, and understand it better, I don't think it's so strange.

Wolfeman

27-03-2007 14:38:20

I always think its strange how Christians are all about Jesus and forget about God and all the saints shrug

tinman5

27-03-2007 15:07:06

[quotef94d270335="LaineD"][quotef94d270335="nytrate"]Catholics are Christians, it's just a subsection of Christianity.[/quotef94d270335]

I agree with the fact that Catholics are a subsection of Christiantiy. Most religions are. But no matter what religion someone has held, if they're a regular church-going person, I've always heard them say "I'm a Christian." which is why, personally, I call religeous people Christians no matter what their faith is.[/quotef94d270335]

Christians are only those who believe that Jesus Christ was sent to Earth to die for our sins, this includes Catholics and others, but does not apply to all who go to regular services, for instance Jews and Muslims.

[quotef94d270335="LaineD"][quotef94d270335="nytrate"]Buddhism is a lot more complicated than that, I won't get into a long discussion but it's a very interesting religion to read about.[/quotef94d270335]

Oh, I know it's much more difficult than that. I was just using the statue of [bf94d270335]Buddha[/bf94d270335] as an example to what I was trying to say.[/quotef94d270335]

[quotef94d270335="Wolfeman"]I always think its strange how Christians are all about Jesus and forget about God and all the saints shrug[/quotef94d270335]

Christians don't forget about God, they believe that God and Jesus are the same person as LaineD said above. As for the saints, I don't really know about that.

nytrate

27-03-2007 15:11:59

Actually there are a TON of non-Christian religions. Being a regular church going person does not make you Christian...LOL. That's crazy talk.

[quote17afe83e91="tinman5"]Christians don't forget about God, they believe that God and Jesus are the same person as LaineD said above.[/quote17afe83e91]

actually, they don't. They believe that Jesus is the son of God. How can a father and son be the same person? Mary gave birth to Jesus after being supposedly impregnated by God. That is the Christian belief. They do NOT believe that God is Jesus. That's ridiculous. They believe that Jesus is their savior and worship him, yes. He is simply their "connection" to God.

This thread and others like it scare me. Someone should start a freebie site to give away history and philosophy books!

tinman5

27-03-2007 15:17:49

[quote471a50e31d="nytrate"]Actually there are a TON of non-Christian religions. Being a regular church going person does not make you Christian...LOL. That's crazy talk.

[quote471a50e31d="tinman5"]Christians don't forget about God, they believe that God and Jesus are the same person as LaineD said above.[/quote471a50e31d]

actually, they don't. They believe that Jesus is the son of God. How can a father and son be the same person? Mary gave birth to Jesus after being supposedly impregnated by God. That is the Christian belief. They do NOT believe that God is Jesus. That's ridiculous. They believe that Jesus is their savior and worship him, yes. He is simply their "connection" to God.

This thread and others like it scare me. Someone should start a freebie site to give away history and philosophy books![/quote471a50e31d]

I've heard from many christians that they believe the Father, the son and the holy ghost are three aspects of the same God. It's really not that ridiculous an idea either, I mean, have YOU ever seen them at the same time in the same place? shock P

TFOAF

27-03-2007 15:20:40

I'm Jewish and I believe in G-d. < Habit (-).

But uh...I'm not necessarily a religious person. I celebrate and observe Passover, Yom Kippur, Rosh Hashanah, and uhh...Hanukkah. That's about it. I don't go to Synagogue except on really religious days. And, I don't keep kosher or do things that I'm not supposed to do, like no electronics on Sundays...right. Bacon Cheeseburgers are one of the best foods created on this Earth. D

But anyways...there's also a lot in the Jewish religion that I don't agree with, or I have my own point of view. Yes, I believe in most of the Old Testament, however, I disagree with a lot of it as well. And I'm not certain, but I believe that Jesus was Jewish? (no need to start a debate over this). At least, that's what I learned. Anyways, enough of me ranting about religion because everyone is just going to try and prove me wrong like they always do anyways.

/rant

And just to add one more thing...during Passover, there's this cup, we put wine in. Now this ... kinda freaks me out. And then we open the door to let the spirit of "Elijah" in to take some sips of it. And seriously, no joke, I've see the wine go down A LOT, by itself. No illusions or anything. Kinda makes me shiver, no idea why. It's not like wine evaporates within 15 minutes, lol. It doesn't evaporate at all. P

CollidgeGraduit

27-03-2007 15:23:16

[quoteb5b8ef026f="nytrate"]Actually there are a TON of non-Christian religions. Being a regular church going person does not make you Christian...LOL. That's crazy talk.

[quoteb5b8ef026f="tinman5"]Christians don't forget about God, they believe that God and Jesus are the same person as LaineD said above.[/quoteb5b8ef026f]

actually, they don't. They believe that Jesus is the son of God. How can a father and son be the same person? Mary gave birth to Jesus after being supposedly impregnated by God. That is the Christian belief. They do NOT believe that God is Jesus. That's ridiculous. They believe that Jesus is their savior and worship him, yes. He is simply their "connection" to God.

This thread and others like it scare me. Someone should start a freebie site to give away history and philosophy books![/quoteb5b8ef026f]

Actually any denomination that includes the Trinity as part of their doctrine (which I believe is most protestant denominations) believes that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are three aspects of the same "person". They also believe that Jesus is God, and He makes several claims to it in scripture. Before you ask, I don't have any explanation for how that is possible, it's something that would need to be taken on faith.

Wolfeman

27-03-2007 15:35:08

[quote84a5637322="tinman5"][quote84a5637322="Wolfeman"]I always think its strange how Christians are all about Jesus and forget about God and all the saints shrug[/quote84a5637322]

Christians don't forget about God, they believe that God and Jesus are the same person as LaineD said above. As for the saints, I don't really know about that.[/quote84a5637322]
Catholics think God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same thing, Holy Trinity. Christians are all about JC...

nytrate

27-03-2007 15:36:02

Hmm...that would contradict so much scripture though...

It was always my understanding that although they believed that Jesus was/is a holy entity...that he was descended from God.

I thought that the "father, the son and the holy spirit" encompassed what is holy and revered...and maybe even as a single unit of sorts...but that at the root of it all they still believed that Jesus was descended from God. Even if they viewed Jesus as God reincarnate, or more likely as an anthropomorphic "version" of God...I was always under the belief that they still believed in the immaculate conception and that Jesus was born to Mary from a greater holy entity "the father".

I guess I need to read more Christianity scripture. After reading the Old Testament, I moved on to reading up on other religions.

CollidgeGraduit

27-03-2007 15:36:10

[quote5f6ecb5937="Wolfeman"][quote5f6ecb5937="tinman5"][quote5f6ecb5937="Wolfeman"]I always think its strange how Christians are all about Jesus and forget about God and all the saints shrug[/quote5f6ecb5937]

Christians don't forget about God, they believe that God and Jesus are the same person as LaineD said above. As for the saints, I don't really know about that.[/quote5f6ecb5937]
Catholics think God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same thing, Holy Trinity. Christians are all about JC...[/quote5f6ecb5937]

Not true.. I've been to quite a few different non-Catholic Christian denominations that all believe in the Holy Trinity.

tinman5

27-03-2007 15:54:59

There are so many Christian denominations that it's more than likely that some believe in the Holy Trinity while others believe in Jesus as the son of God, and not a part of Him. I'm sure that both viewpoints can be backed up by scripture as well.

JUNIOR6886

27-03-2007 16:12:24

[quotef111fabbbe="Wolfeman"][quotef111fabbbe="Crymson"][quotef111fabbbe="Wolfeman"]My last GF and I broke up because she became ultra religious and it blows. There was no place for me...[/quotef111fabbbe]

same here...

It's a tragedy when religion is used to close one's mind instead of opening it.
(She is muslim)[/quotef111fabbbe]
Mine was Jewish. Its crazy how much those 2 religions hate each other when they are so similar shrug

Lets get something straight, Christians are a sub sect of Catholics. Catholics believe in the Father (God), the son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit (candy?). We pray to Mary and consider her like a saint. We are more about the whole picture than just Jesus. We also get food and booze, SUCKAS!!![/quotef111fabbbe]

Catholics were the original christians. Martin Luther created the protestant
religion when the Catholic leaders were doing fucked up shit.
protestant(think protest ;) ) He introduced the idea that one can get into heaven simply by having faith alone along with his 95 thesis. All the denominations of christianity besides Catholic are subsets of proestantism

Yeah Catholics believe that the Father (God), the son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit (the bond between the father and the son but candy is close enough P )Are 3 parts but whole at the same time. I remember my sunday school teacher calling this a "joyful mystery" lol

I also remember reading that catholics consider holy communion and the blessed wine as the literal body and blood of christ. Some denominations of christianity are letting women and gays be priest now...... im not sure how they justify that.....

One thing i never understood about catholisim was how they justified praying to patron saints. (for people who dont know there are patron saints that can help you deal with different aspects of life such as St. Francis of Assisi - Patron Saint of Animals and the Environment)

dmorris68

27-03-2007 16:51:07

[quote00b848a661="nytrate"]actually, they don't. They believe that Jesus is the son of God. How can a father and son be the same person? Mary gave birth to Jesus after being supposedly impregnated by God. That is the Christian belief. They do NOT believe that God is Jesus. That's ridiculous. They believe that Jesus is their savior and worship him, yes. He is simply their "connection" to God.

This thread and others like it scare me. Someone should start a freebie site to give away history and philosophy books![/quote00b848a661]
I don't get into the religious public debates, but I must point out that you yourself have fallen victim to that which you just berated others for doing espousing an opinion in such a way as to make yourself sound knowledgeable about a topic, when it's evident (at least with regards to this specific subject) that you are not. ;)

First, Protestantism and Catholicism are both peers within the umbrella of Christianity. Christians are NOT sub-sects of Catholicism. The term Christian indicates those which believe Christ is divine and follow his teachings. The technical definition of the term is "Christ-like" i.e. to live as he did. Jews and Muslims believe in Christ, however they consider him simply a prophet of God, and not as a divine being or as God incarnate.

Secondly, the [i00b848a661]majority[/i00b848a661] of Protestant denominations do NOT believe in the Holy Trinity as separate entities, but as one. Jesus IS God manifested as flesh, his divine birth was simply the vehicle by which he walked the earth as a man rather than a spirit or omnipotent being, in order to perform miracles and pass on the teachings of God. When he speaks of his "father" he is speaking to distinguish himself as the God of the Heavens. It's not that much of a stretch of faith if you think of Jesus as a "splinter" of God, rather than an offspring.

Jesus being one with God is such a fundamental concept in so many Protestant doctrines that I'm quite surprised that you act surprised by it.

[b00b848a661]EDIT[/b00b848a661] nytrate, I started typing this response immediately after your earlier post, then got interrupted by a long phone call. Came back to finish and submit, and now see that there have been other posts on the topic. Just wanted to point out that I wasn't trying to pile on you or anything. ;)

nytrate

27-03-2007 17:11:16

that's all good and everything, but you seem to have misread/had selected reading.

[quote802575605a]Christians are NOT sub-sects of Catholicism. [/quote802575605a]

never said it was. I actually said the opposite in correcting someone. Everyone knows it's the other way around.

[quote802575605a]Secondly, the majority of Protestant denominations do NOT believe in the Holy Trinity as separate entities, but as one. Jesus IS God manifested as flesh[/quote802575605a]

Although you quoted the part about me saying Jesus wasn't considered God, you missed the part where I said but they view Jesus as a anthropomorphic version of him. Pretty much the same thing as "manifested as flesh" as far as I'm concerned.

Although most of what I said applies more to Catholicism more so than all of Christianity, I still stand by what I said. Even the protestants believe that there was God before Jesus, therefore making Jesus simply a "version" of God, a connection (my exact words I believe) from the holy force to the human people. Now to say it's all part of the holy trinity and all the same divine force or what have you, that's fine. But it seems like you didn't read everything (especially the first thing!!!!!!) or picked it apart incorrectly.

Although I am wrong I guess because I did believe that even the Protestants believed that there is a distinction between God and Jesus, one being an unseen heavenly force and the other being something that came along later to connect this force to the people. So, there I guess I am wrong?

Still...I've read and studied the bible more so than most non-Christians ) as I have studied many other religions. That is a small distinction I believe. What do you define as separate? What do you define as being one? If one came before the other how, using all forms of logic, could you not say there is some sort of distinction even at a purely physical level.

dmorris68

27-03-2007 17:43:43

[quote3a89132464="nytrate"]that's all good and everything, but you seem to have misread/had selected reading.

[quote3a89132464]Christians are NOT sub-sects of Catholicism. [/quote3a89132464]

never said it was. I actually said the opposite in correcting someone. Everyone knows it's the other way around.[/quote3a89132464]
I'm sorry, I could have sworn I read that the other way around. Getting old I guess, or maybe dyslexia is kicking in. oops

Oh, speaking of which, on a sideways but related note what is an agnostic dyslexic insomniac? Someone who lies awake at night contemplating the existence of Dog. )

Anyway, back to the topic

[quote3a89132464="nytrate"]Although I am wrong I guess because I did believe that even the Protestants believed that there is a distinction between God and Jesus, one being an unseen heavenly force and the other being something that came along later to connect this force to the people. So, there I guess I am wrong?
...
That is a small distinction I believe. What do you define as separate? What do you define as being one? If one came before the other how, using all forms of logic, could you not say there is some sort of distinction even at a purely physical level.[/quote3a89132464]
Most Protestants, especially your more fundamentalist or "holiness" denominations, actually seize quite forcefully to the distinction, as it's how they separate themselves from Catholics, and fuels their judgment of Catholics as "evil" and false prophets whose mission is to contaminate and usurp Christian doctrine (their opinion, not mine). Yes, there are many Protestant faiths that consider Catholicism as evil incarnate, that the Pope is an emissary of the anti-christ, etc. etc.

Some will say that the entire concept of the singularity of the Holy Trinity defies human logic and therefore is beyond our ability to define. I mean, if you're going to be believe in an omnipotent higher power, it isn't much of a stretch to believe there are characteristics of said being that cannot be described in human terms as we know them. It's for that very reason that Jesus came upon the earth, so that humans could see/feel/hear/touch as they would another human. They could relate, in other words. If you believe God is omnipresent -- being everywhere simultaneously at once -- then why is it hard to believe he was here on earth as Christ while simultaneously moving around as the Holy Spirt and also observing every living thing while "floating in the ether?" The concept of different physical characteristics having to be distinctly different entities is an entirely human one, and irrelevant to the nature of a supreme being.

[quote3a89132464="nytrate"]Still...I've read and studied the bible more so than most non-Christians ) as I have studied many other religions.[/quote3a89132464]
As have I. I was raised in a strong Christian household, and like anything else I tackle, I do so with gusto and thirst for knowledge. But my wife can put me to shame -- she has a degree in Theology/Christian Education. I have to remind myself not debate theology or scripture with her, I'm still licking my wounds from the last time I tried. ;)

nytrate

27-03-2007 18:00:09

right on. Good responses. This kind of discussion is what I've found missing with this forum and I thank you dmorris for engaging in it with me. Always good to learn something new. I still don't fully grasp the singularity issue. I mean, even if they do believe Jesus is God in the flesh there seems to me that there would still be some kind of distinction between him having the spirit of God or the influence of God and being human in his own right. I don't know.

I actually wasn't raised Christian or anything for that matter. All my knowledge comes from reading, and as I said before, I stopped after the Old Testament and bits and pieces of others. Eastern religion is much, much more fascinating than Christianity or Judaism IMO )

Maybe I came off as a bit harsh, but that's only because I got worked up by the guy who implied that non-religious people don't do good deeds and basically patted himself on the back for doing what most civil human beings have done at some point in their life.

secondjob

27-03-2007 19:47:59

I was raised catholic and got nothing from it. Then I met my husband and we started going to a baptist church. Since then I feel that I have a better understanding of my faith and the want to follow the path that God has in store for me. Through Jesus we all get to heaven. I feel at peace believing that Jesus died for our sins and praying through him will get me where I need to be. With God anything is possible!

Bhall3

27-03-2007 21:03:31

Its not about a certain religion. Its about faith! Wish I could've got in on this earlier, but I had to be at a track meet today.

zr2152

27-03-2007 21:27:04

[quoteae320b596c="nytrate"]right on. Good responses. This kind of discussion is what I've found missing with this forum and I thank you dmorris for engaging in it with me. Always good to learn something new. I still don't fully grasp the singularity issue. I mean, even if they do believe Jesus is God in the flesh there seems to me that there would still be some kind of distinction between him having the spirit of God or the influence of God and being human in his own right. I don't know.

I actually wasn't raised Christian or anything for that matter. All my knowledge comes from reading, and as I said before, I stopped after the Old Testament and bits and pieces of others. Eastern religion is much, much more fascinating than Christianity or Judaism IMO )

Maybe I came off as a bit harsh, but that's only because I got worked up by the guy who implied that non-religious people don't do good deeds and basically patted himself on the back for doing what most civil human beings have done at some point in their life.[/quoteae320b596c]

Well I was that guy.

1. I never stated that non-religious people dont do good deeds.
2. I never patted myself on the back for doing what most civil himan beings have done at some point in their life.

I was just trying to defend that fact that you state that every Christians throw Jesus in peoples faces. Maybe I couldnt find the right points and I apologize for it seeming like that (maybe it was beacuse I was tired and all).

Please dont put words in my mouth. I am FAR from a good Christian and farther from giving a lot back to society (it seems that you have done that very well, nice.). I do NOT think that I am better than anyone.

Again, you dont even know my for goodness sake. This is a forum.

booklover1104

27-03-2007 21:42:36

I think that secondjob summed it up...kind of. In all sects of Christianity Jesus was/is meant to be the intercessor for humans to God, the Father. Catholicism seems to take this a step or two further by "invoking" patron saints to curry favor or carry pleas to God, the idea being that simple humans don't have such a right to directly approach Him (sorta like chain of command). While I believe what David said about Jesus being the humanizing aspect of God (feel/touch/see), I don't believe that to be His only purpose...He (Jesus) was the final sacrifice of Judaism, so that "God's people" no longer had to offer up animal sacrifices to find salvation/favor with God.

A Hart

28-03-2007 11:52:47

Either you believe or not, right?

Everyone feels they have to attach a name to something.
And think that knowing the history of the name puts them higher
on the totem pole.
GET REAL.
It [b7b6f46acc1]IS[/b7b6f46acc1] that black and white.
Do you..........or don't you.

nytrate

28-03-2007 12:23:30

I don't believe.

It ISN'T that black or white. Most definitely not. Knowing the history allows you to make an informed decision on whether or not it's all a bunch of bullshit. That is what knowing the history does. Who would believe without knowing anything about it? That is what separates humans from sheep. We should be able to self educate on worldly things and THEN come to an informed conclusion.

To say it is black or white....wow. There are countless religious/spiritual writings from all over the world of all different beliefs. There is SO MUCH out there that it's impossible to just say it's black or white. It's the whole damned rainbow.

burritopunk

28-03-2007 12:35:53

[quote0282e40050="nytrate"]I don't believe.

It ISN'T that black or white. Most definitely not. Knowing the history allows you to make an informed decision on whether or not it's all a bunch of bullshit. That is what knowing the history does. Who would believe without knowing anything about it? That is what separates humans from sheep. We should be able to self educate on worldly things and THEN come to an informed conclusion.

To say it is black or white....wow. There are countless religious/spiritual writings from all over the world of all different beliefs. There is SO MUCH out there that it's impossible to just say it's black or white. It's the whole damned rainbow.[/quote0282e40050]

I think you both are right. Whether you believe or not is black and white. The thought process of sifting through information and personal belief isn't. The final element though, of believing, I think, is black and white; even if you're an agnostic.

bruman

28-03-2007 13:58:03

So Dave82, the creator of this thread, never even replied as to what exactly he was talking about.

But it still definitely created a spirited discussion!

Twon

28-03-2007 14:31:32

I am a believer that there is nothing to believe in. Call me faithless if you wish. There is no creator or saviour. I think my beliefs, or non beliefs, mostly stem from my life and hatred of it. So many fucked up things have happened to me and my family. I used to lie in bed and stare at the ceiling and think "If you are there you motherfliliker, it might be worth ending this useless existence just so you and I can have words!" I have and always will maintained that if there is a so called God, and we meet, we will fight. I'm not saying that to be thought of as hard or anything. I literally hate God (if there is one which I highly doubt). You might think I am a loveless person. Not so. I love my son and my wife. Nor do I try and push my beliefs or disbeliefs about a so called God on people. You might be able to tell that I am pissed off and depressed most of the time. I am not a Satan worshiper as I don't believe in him/her either. I just hate God and I hate the idea of a God. Especially when every religion centers around the fact that God loves his people...

This is my opinion. Nothing less and nothing more.

secondjob

28-03-2007 15:00:50

Life is a test and God will test your faith. If I didn't believe that God existed I would be pissed and depressed to. What could you possibly live for without God? Every single person on this planet has had hardships. No one persons hardships is greater than the next. God only gives you what you can handle.

Twon

28-03-2007 15:05:56

I'm not going to discredit your opinion because i believ that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I REALLY believe that...

but your post made me angry... i have to go calm down...

nytrate

28-03-2007 15:07:39

completely agreed Twon

when you see genuinely good people die young of cancer and evil people live till they're 100, you start to question if there is a higher power.

If there is, I agree, I want to have words. If a higher power exists it must be one sick fuck, with all the things happening in our world.

All I want explained to me is cancer. Nothing else.

If God exists, he must hate most organized religions. Look at the history of the world and all the wars and terrible atrocities that have taken place in the name of religion.

I agree. God could in no possible way love his people. There are pedophiles living healthy lives and humanitarians dying of cancer. Tell me how that's caring?

secondjob

28-03-2007 15:14:44

I'm sorry, I am not trying to offend anybody, but this is how I feel. I have been through a lot of crap in my life as has my husband and our faith has pulled us through a lot of tuff spots. When you have somebody in your life that has battled addiction and finally puts themselves at the mercy of God. It is amazing to watch the person you love do a 180 turn around.

booklover1104

28-03-2007 15:20:28

Agnostic, atheist or faith driven...pedophile or humanitarian...doesn't really matter in the face of cancer. Cancer is, at best, a genetic flaw on the molecular level. At worst, the result of faulty living -whether through chosen vices or environmental oddities.

JUNIOR6886

28-03-2007 17:25:55

[quote8c79777512="secondjob"]Life is a test and God will test your faith. If I didn't believe that God existed I would be pissed and depressed to. What could you possibly live for without God? Every single person on this planet has had hardships. No one persons hardships is greater than the next. God only gives you what you can handle.[/quote8c79777512]

To that I say
I live my life and get through the day with MY OWN strength.

I think theres something to be said for people who choose to live good moral lives without the promise of heaven, 70+ virgins or any other type of divine reward....

nytrate

28-03-2007 17:40:31

so faith can help those with addictions but not those with cancer?

oh...I see...addiction is actually something a person can get over with inner strength...cancer isn't. What does that say about the power of faith? It only helps when we can help ourselves but for everything else we're flicked? That doesn't make much sense now, does it?

Meet a child with terminal cancer and then tell me it's part of God's plan.

and I agree Junior. Just like saying the non-religious aren't as likely to be humanitarians. When it comes down to it, the non-believers that do acts of good can have no ulterior motives. They know they're gonna rot in the ground and be eaten by worms when they die, yet they chose to spend some of their time being good people. When you believe that you're going to rise out of the ground and prance around in heaven...what's the motivation for making the most of every day on earth?

nytrate

28-03-2007 17:46:44

[quote06dbbac080="secondjob"]Life is a test and God will test your faith. If I didn't believe that God existed I would be pissed and depressed to. What could you possibly live for without God? Every single person on this planet has had hardships. No one persons hardships is greater than the next. God only gives you what you can handle.[/quote06dbbac080]

You could live for yourself and your loved ones.

So giving kids cancer is "testing faith"? What a wonderful God.

Every single person on this planet has had hardships? no greater than the next? So you can honestly say you have it no better than someone born in the Sudan? You can honestly say that you have it no better than the mother who lost her 5 yr old to cancer? You can honestly say that someone getting over an addiction is COMPARABLE to a terminal illness, widespread starvation, being born into slavery and servitude and genocide?

Please. I never try to tread on someone's beliefs...live and let live and all. But that is kind of insulting to those who have had real hardships (and maybe you have). Comparing petty problems of life to the shit that goes down around the world is impossible.

I can arrange a meeting with a room full of children with Hodgkin's disease. Do you want to tell them that God is testing their faith?

booklover1104

28-03-2007 17:55:45

I don't get it...how does the existence or non-existence of God have anything to do with "the shit that goes down around the world"? Starvation, genocide, slavery are man-made problems. Right?

nytrate

28-03-2007 18:23:16

In part. You could also consider the fact of weather changes in the world's history that has left many areas parched and infertile to farm, disease that pollutes the livestock, etc ?

Most people don't ask for those hardships or do anything themselves to bring those hardships on. They are born into it. I was responding to "No ones hardships are worse than others, God only gives what you can handle". It has EVERYTHING to do with that statement...

secondjob

28-03-2007 18:25:11

Thank you!

People shit on each other daily, God is not just going to swoop in and fix all problems. If he did we would not be having this discussion. He wants you to find your own strength to believe in him. People have to make choices for themselves, that's part of life. And yes it does suck that children and good people die from diseases, but that is also part of life. I also am not saying that nonbelievers can not do good deeds, they surely can. I am also not saying that I am a bible thumping christian, I am actually far from it. As for children, in my faith children are garanteed a place in heaven. So I wouldn't tell the children that God is testing their faith, I would tell their parents! And addiction is comparable to terminal illness, an addiction can kill just the same. The difference is that an addiction is a choice, an illness is not. The similarity is that most of the problems we face in this world are man-made.

nytrate

28-03-2007 18:31:44

[quote3c57334b1e]So I wouldn't tell the children that God is testing their faith, I would tell their parents! [/quote3c57334b1e]

I'll shut up and leave this thread after this...but you better hope one of those parents wouldn't be me!

I guess either side will never understand the other. If my kid was dying and someone told me that, I'd probably kill them with my bare hands.

I'm outta here

A Hart

28-03-2007 19:50:23

[quote8b63507a52="burritopunk"][quote8b63507a52="nytrate"]I don't believe.

It ISN'T that black or white. Most definitely not. Knowing the history allows you to make an informed decision on whether or not it's all a bunch of bullshit. That is what knowing the history does. Who would believe without knowing anything about it? That is what separates humans from sheep. We should be able to self educate on worldly things and THEN come to an informed conclusion.

To say it is black or white....wow. There are countless religious/spiritual writings from all over the world of all different beliefs. There is SO MUCH out there that it's impossible to just say it's black or white. It's the whole damned rainbow.[/quote8b63507a52]

I think you both are right. Whether you believe or not is black and white. The thought process of sifting through information and personal belief isn't. The final element though, of believing, I think, is black and white; even if you're an agnostic.[/quote8b63507a52]

Thanks for stickin up for me. I think nytrate is the know-it-all of the century.

condra

28-03-2007 20:10:58

[quote3daba88e46="A Hart"][quote3daba88e46="burritopunk"]

I think you both are right. Whether you believe or not is black and white. The thought process of sifting through information and personal belief isn't. The final element though, of believing, I think, is black and white; even if you're an agnostic.[/quote3daba88e46]

Thanks for stickin up for me. I think nytrate is the know-it-all of the century.[/quote3daba88e46]

I don't agree. Because the process of ''believing'' cannot be black and white since it depends what you believe in. And I think that that is particulary hard to establish. For example, I don't believe in God as he is defined by the Catholic or Ortodox church. I tend to enjoy every moment of my life without relying on anything but myself and the people around me. I like to say that I believe in ''LIFE''. In caps.
So does that mean that I don't believe? It depends in what and how you ''define'' God.

And this life isnt just good or just bad, but you have to live it...anyway. No one plans your destiny, you are basically the result of your actions and of separate events beyond your control (here we can talk about karma, or parents' sins, and more, but I am not going into it), that affect you. Inevitably, we all live in the same world, believe it or not. So every person's acts affect us in a way or the other, on a v. large scale.

And Religion is the worst of all man-made things...especially Religion taken to its extreme. countless examples of crusades that affected so many ppl for what? the church and the power. and the terrorrist attacks can be explained that way, althou there are some political things going on there. and again, religion is a lot of times related to power and thus politics. you can also think about the large number of innocent women and men burned as ''witches''. so in my humble opinion, religion just mixes things up.

I also use to say that ppl that are really believers have the easiest path of all. If something goes wrong, God wanted it that way. If they have a problem, God will solve it. It is good to have faith...but sometimes you need to act in order to reach your dreams.

And yes, I used to think too about the ilogical pattern, why do good ppl have such bad things happen to them, where some v. bad ppl are very prospere? The only reason or explanation I can see is that every obstacle is a learning process, and if you succeed in depassing it, you have a deeper understanding of yourself and life in general. But so many things I cannot explain...

Uff! hope this makes somewhat sense

burritopunk

28-03-2007 20:23:37

I guess I was referring to believing in the monotheistic God.

You sound a lot like me nytrate, or at least my opinions about religion/God. Although I do feel that people create many of their own problems, but have free will to have the power to correct these decisions/circumstances. If there is a God, he/she/it can't and shouldn't interfere with every predicament or problem that humans are faced with. A life without problems would be a boring one indeed.

zdub08

28-03-2007 20:27:45

[quote4997fbeea9="secondjob"]Thank you!

People shit on each other daily, God is not just going to swoop in and fix all problems. If he did we would not be having this discussion. He wants you to find your own strength to believe in him. People have to make choices for themselves, that's part of life. And yes it does suck that children and good people die from diseases, but that is also part of life. I also am not saying that nonbelievers can not do good deeds, they surely can. I am also not saying that I am a bible thumping christian, I am actually far from it. As for children, in my faith children are garanteed a place in heaven. So I wouldn't tell the children that God is testing their faith, I would tell their parents! And addiction is comparable to terminal illness, an addiction can kill just the same. The difference is that an addiction is a choice, an illness is not. The similarity is that most of the problems we face in this world are man-made.[/quote4997fbeea9]
What the hell is the point of God bringing someone who is going to die from cancer in his/her youth into the world in the first place? Don't tell me it's to test the faith of anyone.

dmorris68

28-03-2007 20:42:06

nytrate, all those questions about the "fairness" of life are addressed in Christian doctrine. Here's a mini-overview as best as I can sum it up, based upon the doctrines I'm familiar with

The general idea is that man brought suffering upon himself. God created Adam in his own image (i.e. same as God), without flaw, without sickness. A perfect being. He created Eve from Adam in likewise fashion. Eve (and subsequently Adam) succumbed to temptation and disobeyed God's orders to them, and as punishment God banished them from Eden and cursed humanity. Disease, starvation, pain (including pain of childbirth in particular, as a punishment for Eve's actions), and death, among all of the other sufferings of humanity, are the punishment for their sin.

Most Christian doctrines actually teach that "good" people are expected to suffer more on earth than "bad" people. Firstly as a test of our faith, and secondly because we all must pay the price for Adam & Eve's mistakes, regardless of how "good" we are. But through salvation and good deeds, the "good" people can live on in the eternal afterlife as God-like, perfect beings, as Adam and Eve were intended to live. However the "bad" people get their suffering for all of eternity in the afterlife, i.e. Hell. So the period of time that they revel on earth is really but an infinitesimal moment in time compared to the suffering they are to endure for eternity. In other words, you're gonna pay now for a brief moment in time, or you're gonna pay later for eternity. ;)

God also allows us to suffer in order to teach us, just as a parent punishes a spoiled child. He is also prone to change his mind and reconsider his plans for us. He destroyed all living things in the Great Flood, except for Noah and his family, due to his anger over humanity's decline into sin. But he promised afterwards that he would never again purge the entire Earth like that.

God gave us reason and free will, along with a "rulebook" for living. It is up to us how we live and follow those rules, and ultimately how we'll pay.

That's the explanation in a nutshell, at least as far as my experience in Christian doctrine goes. I'm personally not a practicing or devout Christian anymore, but the history and doctrine are still interesting to me and something I enjoy discussing as long as the discussion is civil and open-minded. For more details than that I could ask my wife, as she is far more the theologian/scholar than I am.

BlueX

28-03-2007 20:43:50

If agnosticism is the the belief that you just don't know so you create your own beliefs, then I am sorry, but that's just plain ridiculous. How do agnostic's know that we cannot know? The idea of creating your own morals/values/beliefs is just stupid, it's immature knowledge. Good and evil are not "left up to individuals to decide," they are concrete rights and wrongs. There are good things and there are bad things. Then, by these definitions, then how could you believe in right/wrong by being agnostic? It really doesn't make sense. I believe that any set of moral principles or any philosophical idea has to have some set of morals that hold true for all practicers, not something left undefined.

The problem with "religion" is that it is always scrutinized by many, and has a stigma attached to it.. (for example, "christian evangelicals," "republicans," "pro lifers," etc) that people do not want to be associated with, which is what scares them away... I think that's neive and ignorant if you dismiss completely religion without fully evaluating them and examining the primary/secondary sources...

nytrate

28-03-2007 20:47:43

http//www.google.com

burritopunk

28-03-2007 20:56:56

[quote2d1c106c76="BlueX"]If agnosticism is the the belief that you just don't know so you create your own beliefs, then I am sorry, but that's just plain ridiculous. How do agnostic's know that we cannot know? The idea of creating your own morals/values/beliefs is just stupid, it's immature knowledge. Good and evil are not "left up to individuals to decide," they are concrete rights and wrongs. There are good things and there are bad things. Then, by these definitions, then how could you believe in right/wrong by being agnostic? It really doesn't make sense. I believe that any set of moral principles or any philosophical idea has to have some set of morals that hold true for all practicers, not something left undefined.[/quote2d1c106c76]

Umm...that's not what agnosticism is.

And by the way, what morals/values/beliefs are you referring to? You make it seem like if one is an atheist or an agnostic, they have no concept of morality. There is nothing in the Bible that is hasn't been said before regarding morals. See older eastern philosophies; The golden rule, etc.

dmorris68

28-03-2007 21:10:21

And morals are NOT always black and white. What most civilized societies consider as basic "morals" have been dictated by their own cultural, social, and/or religious influences. For some cultures and societies, it is perfectly acceptable to kill people for little to no reason. Or to beat their women and children. Or have sex with children/animals/tree stumps/etc. Or practice cannibalism. And all sorts of other nasty things that many of us would consider to be immoral on some level.

zdub08

28-03-2007 21:10:32

[quote036ec9fc9a="dmorris68"]nytrate, all those questions about the "fairness" of life are addressed in Christian doctrine. Here's a mini-overview as best as I can sum it up, based upon the doctrines I'm familiar with

The general idea is that man brought suffering upon himself. God created Adam in his own image (i.e. same as God), without flaw, without sickness. A perfect being. He created Eve from Adam in likewise fashion. Eve (and subsequently Adam) succumbed to temptation and disobeyed God's orders to them, and as punishment God banished them from Eden and cursed humanity. [b036ec9fc9a] Disease, starvation, pain (including pain of childbirth in particular, as a punishment for Eve's actions), and death, among all of the other sufferings of humanity, are the punishment for their sin.[/b036ec9fc9a]

Most Christian doctrines actually teach that "good" people are expected to suffer more on earth than "bad" people. Firstly as a test of our faith, and secondly because we all must pay the price for Adam & Eve's mistakes, regardless of how "good" we are. But through salvation and good deeds, the "good" people can live on in the eternal afterlife as God-like, perfect beings, as Adam and Eve were intended to live. However the "bad" people get their suffering for all of eternity in the afterlife, i.e. Hell. So the period of time that they revel on earth is really but an infinitesimal moment in time compared to the suffering they are to endure for eternity. In other words, you're gonna pay now for a brief moment in time, or you're gonna pay later for eternity. ;)

God also allows us to suffer in order to teach us, just as a parent punishes a spoiled child. He is also prone to change his mind and reconsider his plans for us. He destroyed all living things in the Great Flood, except for Noah and his family, due to his anger over humanity's decline into sin. But he promised afterwards that he would never again purge the entire Earth like that.

God gave us reason and free will, along with a "rulebook" for living. It is up to us how we live and follow those rules, and ultimately how we'll pay.

That's the explanation in a nutshell, at least as far as my experience in Christian doctrine goes. I'm personally not a practicing or devout Christian anymore, but the history and doctrine are still interesting to me and something I enjoy discussing as long as the discussion is civil and open-minded. For more details than that I could ask my wife, as she is far more the theologian/scholar than I am.[/quote036ec9fc9a]
why would you want to go chill with someone who is still a dick to you even after thousands of years of "punishment" for the actions of two random people. also, if god is really so powerful, wouldn't he have a little foresight and see that people would sin. Didn't he know he would end up punishing mankind for ..eternity I guess?

zdub08

28-03-2007 21:12:56

[quote0fb013e1d5="dmorris68"]And morals are NOT always black and white. What most civilized societies consider as basic "morals" have been dictated by their own cultural, social, and/or religious influences. For some cultures and societies, it is perfectly acceptable to kill people for little to no reason. Or to beat their women and children. Or have sex with children/animals/tree stumps/etc. Or practice cannibalism. And all sorts of other nasty things that many of us would consider to be immoral on some level.[/quote0fb013e1d5]
funny thing is Catholic leaders say that ethics is not subjective

dmorris68

28-03-2007 21:19:39

[quoteee6c94dfa8="zdub08"][quoteee6c94dfa8="dmorris68"]And morals are NOT always black and white. What most civilized societies consider as basic "morals" have been dictated by their own cultural, social, and/or religious influences. For some cultures and societies, it is perfectly acceptable to kill people for little to no reason. Or to beat their women and children. Or have sex with children/animals/tree stumps/etc. Or practice cannibalism. And all sorts of other nasty things that many of us would consider to be immoral on some level.[/quoteee6c94dfa8]
funny thing is Catholic leaders say that ethics is not subjective[/quoteee6c94dfa8]
Of course they do. All societies and belief systems define their own moral code and consider it immutable and non-negotiable. Organized religions, by their nature, cannot be subjective when it comes to morals and doctrine.

secondjob

29-03-2007 04:01:06

[quote7033cc6cec="dmorris68"]nytrate, all those questions about the "fairness" of life are addressed in Christian doctrine. Here's a mini-overview as best as I can sum it up, based upon the doctrines I'm familiar with

The general idea is that man brought suffering upon himself. God created Adam in his own image (i.e. same as God), without flaw, without sickness. A perfect being. He created Eve from Adam in likewise fashion. Eve (and subsequently Adam) succumbed to temptation and disobeyed God's orders to them, and as punishment God banished them from Eden and cursed humanity. Disease, starvation, pain (including pain of childbirth in particular, as a punishment for Eve's actions), and death, among all of the other sufferings of humanity, are the punishment for their sin.

Most Christian doctrines actually teach that "good" people are expected to suffer more on earth than "bad" people. Firstly as a test of our faith, and secondly because we all must pay the price for Adam & Eve's mistakes, regardless of how "good" we are. But through salvation and good deeds, the "good" people can live on in the eternal afterlife as God-like, perfect beings, as Adam and Eve were intended to live. However the "bad" people get their suffering for all of eternity in the afterlife, i.e. Hell. So the period of time that they revel on earth is really but an infinitesimal moment in time compared to the suffering they are to endure for eternity. In other words, you're gonna pay now for a brief moment in time, or you're gonna pay later for eternity. ;)

God also allows us to suffer in order to teach us, just as a parent punishes a spoiled child. He is also prone to change his mind and reconsider his plans for us. He destroyed all living things in the Great Flood, except for Noah and his family, due to his anger over humanity's decline into sin. But he promised afterwards that he would never again purge the entire Earth like that.

God gave us reason and free will, along with a "rulebook" for living. It is up to us how we live and follow those rules, and ultimately how we'll pay.

That's the explanation in a nutshell, at least as far as my experience in Christian doctrine goes. I'm personally not a practicing or devout Christian anymore, but the history and doctrine are still interesting to me and something I enjoy discussing as long as the discussion is civil and open-minded. For more details than that I could ask my wife, as she is far more the theologian/scholar than I am.[/quote7033cc6cec]

Right ON!

Labtec-Jay

29-03-2007 04:55:01

To me faith is a security thing, Kinda like using a sheet to sleep under on a hot night, the sheet does not warm you up, it just makes you feel protected.

I grew up going to all the youth groups and this and that, but when they did not want to accept me for who I was (someone who did not want to bother other people about my religion, or talk about it) they wanted to change me. I think that is a load of crap.

There has been so much corruption in Christianity/catholicism, and so much scientific evidence to prove many parts of the bible wrong, that I find it almost foolish to believe.

nytrate

29-03-2007 05:06:06

[quote3224b40b45="secondjob"]Right ON![/quote3224b40b45]

Right ON to disease and death!!!! wooooohooooo!!!!!!

Y'all have a very mean and vengeful God.

Of course that's how the church will spin lifes fairness. If they didn't no one would believe!

Gotta love the God who allows good people to suffer and die so they can learn a lesson! What a guy!

TryinToGetPaid

29-03-2007 06:47:29

The Bible does show God has wrath. Look at Noah, he drowned em. Look at Sodom and Gamora, he killed the gays.

Plus I would suffer anything on Earth to live in heaven.

"I ain't tryin to die but if I do I wanna meet Jesus Christ"

This is my whole thing on God. I can believe and live a semi-good life and go to Heaven, or if there is no God, I will die like everyone else. Or I can choose not to believe, and when I die, go to Hell forever, or die like everyone else.

CollidgeGraduit

29-03-2007 06:56:46

[quote827ea1c8c5="nytrate"][quote827ea1c8c5="secondjob"]Right ON![/quote827ea1c8c5]

Right ON to disease and death!!!! wooooohooooo!!!!!!

Y'all have a very mean and vengeful God.

Of course that's how the church will spin lifes fairness. If they didn't no one would believe!

Gotta love the God who allows good people to suffer and die so they can learn a lesson! What a guy![/quote827ea1c8c5]

I admit that you do know quite a bit, nytrate, but I have to say that you have not approached this topic at all with an open mind. Every comment you have made has had quite a decidedly anti-Christian slant to it.

What about a parent who lets their kid spend the night in jail for a DUI, rather than bailing them out? Nowhere in the Bible does it say God promises to fix everything and make your life rosey - but He does promise to give you the comfort you need to get through the situation.

dmorris68

29-03-2007 06:59:14

Well nytrate, I think you're over generalizing a bit, perhaps for dramatic effect or to make your point seem more convincing.

Not lieveryli good person suffers. Not lieveryli bad person lives a life of luxury and happiness. People aren't born "evil" -- it's a trait that is learned. And many (most?) "good" people will tell you that they feel blessed in life, despite any adversity they may have faced.

We all know it's much easier to be good than to be bad, because deep down we all have innate human tendencies to get ourselves ahead and screw our fellow man. EVERY ONE OF US. If you deny it, then you're naive or delusional. What separates "good" folks from "bad" is that good folks don't give in to those base temptations, out of moral conviction and a sense of what's right. While the "bad" guys say "screw it, it's all about me and I don't give a crap about society or laws or the family I just destroyed."

Many good people live their lives without major drama or tragedy. Many bad people suffer. It's just our perspective in society is to see bad things happening to good people as more tragic and unfair than when bad things happen to bad people. Bad people die of cancer, get murdered in the streets, suffer in prison, etc. In fact one could argue that a bad person puts themselves at considerably more risk for certain "suffering" than other people. Fact of the matter is that MOST really bad people start paying their price long before they leave this earth.

I would suggest that if you were to look at things in a detached, statistical fashion, taking into account socio-economic factors that some groups of people are born into, the distribution of "suffering" would be spread pretty evenly across humanity. We just notice and care more when the "good" people suffer. It doesn't mean that God wants all good folks to live a miserable life. He simply refuses to intervene in most cases, otherwise there would be no need for faith -- we would have regular and re-occurring proof that he exists, therefore we would be more directly influenced by his acts of protection rather than our own free will. That is the ultimate test of a faithful servant, which is what Christians are expected to be.

We aren't expected to understand God's plan. As a lowly spec in the grand universe, it's awfully arrogant to think we know it all and can understand all the answers. So Christians (and other religions) place their faith in their God, and live with the notion of following their God's teachings as best they can in the hope of receiving salvation.

TryinToGetPaid

29-03-2007 07:11:40

[quote245067f211]"We aren't expected to understand God's plan. As a lowly spec in the grand universe, it's awfully arrogant to think we know it all and can understand all the answers."[/quote245067f211]

QFT.

tpkenter

29-03-2007 07:11:44

[quotebb61041c46="Labtec-Jay"]There has been so much corruption in Christianity/catholicism, and so much scientific evidence to prove many parts of the bible wrong, that I find it almost foolish to believe.[/quotebb61041c46]

I agree with you about the corruption. Unfortunately, none of us is perfect. If we were, we would not need Jesus as our Saviour.

What scientific evidence has proven any part of the Bible to be wrong? Personally, I find it foolish not to believe.

TryinToGetPaid

29-03-2007 07:15:09

I don't believe all of the bible. I do not believe that God created everything in 7 days. I believe that God understood that the people of that time were uneducated, and understanding a MILLION years would be way past what they could comprehend, so he gave the idea to the scribe, to write a story about how he created the world in 7 days, something they could understand.

tpkenter

29-03-2007 07:19:35

[quote67a22e1101="dmorris68"]We aren't expected to understand God's plan. As a lowly spec in the grand universe, it's awfully arrogant to think we know it all and can understand all the answers.[/quote67a22e1101]

AMEN!

tpkenter

29-03-2007 07:30:10

[quote0f38a26769="TryinToGetPaid"]I don't believe all of the bible. I do not believe that God created everything in 7 days. I believe that God understood that the people of that time were uneducated, and understanding a MILLION years would be way past what they could comprehend, so he gave the idea to the scribe, to write a story about how he created the world in 7 days, something they could understand.[/quote0f38a26769]

If you believe God created everything, you believe the Bible. Your interpretation may be correct, 7 days may not be 7 of our days. Some people believe the earth is only a few thousand years old. To me, it doesn't really matter. I believe God created everything and I don't think I will ever understand exactly how He did it.

tpkenter

29-03-2007 07:32:19

[quote6ffa3702e5="dmorris68"]We all know it's much easier to be good than to be bad, because deep down we all have innate human tendencies to get ourselves ahead and screw our fellow man. EVERY ONE OF US. If you deny it, then you're naive or delusional.[/quote6ffa3702e5]

Did you mean to say it's easier to be bad than to be good?

burritopunk

29-03-2007 08:52:40

[quotedd75607303="TryinToGetPaid"]

This is my whole thing on God. I can believe and live a semi-good life and go to Heaven, or if there is no God, I will die like everyone else. Or I can choose not to believe, and when I die, go to Hell forever, or die like everyone else.[/quotedd75607303]

I used to talk to my christian girlfriend about this kind of thing and said "so, I could live a very charitable, noble life giving to people and being a genuinley kind and loving person, but not believe in Christianity, therefore go to hell; But bullies, cheaters, liars, rapists, and general scum can be 'saved' and ask for forgiveness and go to heaven?"

That notion just really turns me off of Christianity.

nytrate

29-03-2007 09:21:10

in 1000 years everyone will be praying to Henry Ford

J4320

29-03-2007 09:47:37

^ lololol

I'm reading through the thread. It looks interesting... P

dmorris68

29-03-2007 10:16:50

[quote37a800ad56="tpkenter"][quote37a800ad56="dmorris68"]We all know it's much easier to be good than to be bad, because deep down we all have innate human tendencies to get ourselves ahead and screw our fellow man. EVERY ONE OF US. If you deny it, then you're naive or delusional.[/quote37a800ad56]

Did you mean to say it's easier to be bad than to be good?[/quote37a800ad56]
Yes. Absolutely. It takes much more strength and conviction to be good than to be bad.

Regarding the concept of time and a 7-day Creation Theory

7 days isn't believed by many to be a literal interpretation. I don't recall the scripture nor the exact words (my wife could) but it says something to the effect of, compared to the human concept of time, to God a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day. Which is to say, if there is a God who is responsible for creating the universe, and who was there before all (presumably even before the concept of "time" itself), then we can't possibly expect our human notion of time to coincide with God's notion.

Even those who put science far ahead of religious dogma believe that time is relative to the observer (Einstein, anyone?) and can be manipulated in various theoretical fashions. String theory, wormhole theory, and other fields of study involving time warping tell us that man's concept of time is simply one perspective of it, and these are people who typically give no credence to religion whatsoever.

I think it's obvious, and limostli Christians will agree, that the earth is more than a few thousand years old. Only the most literalist and fundamentalist sects would argue against that. IMO there is plenty of room for science and Christianity (and other religions) to co-exist without contradicting each other, and that would include room for both Creationism and Evolution. I know many Christians who have no problem with Evolution.

J4320

29-03-2007 10:31:11

[quotee56db8a483="Wolfeman"][quotee56db8a483="Crymson"][quotee56db8a483="Wolfeman"]My last GF and I broke up because she became ultra religious and it blows. There was no place for me...[/quotee56db8a483]

same here...

It's a tragedy when religion is used to close one's mind instead of opening it.
(She is muslim)[/quotee56db8a483]
Mine was Jewish. Its crazy how much those 2 religions hate each other when they are so similar shrug

[be56db8a483]Lets get something straight, Christians are a sub sect of Catholics. [/be56db8a483] Catholics believe in the Father (God), the son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit (candy?). We pray to Mary and consider her like a saint. We are more about the whole picture than just Jesus. We also get food and booze, SUCKAS!!![/quotee56db8a483]

I'm not so sure if you're right on that one. A Christian is a Christ follower. There are many different subsections of Christianity and Catholicism (they are also Christ followers but they have a different view on things) is one of them; so I'm pretty sure you have it backwards. Christians came before the Catholics. ;)

[quotee56db8a483="TryinToGetPaid"]This is my whole thing on God. I can believe and live a semi-good life and go to Heaven, or if there is no God, I will die like everyone else. Or I can choose not to believe, and when I die, go to Hell forever, or die like everyone else.[/quotee56db8a483]

There's nothing like looking at salvation as an insurance policy. I'm sure God absolutely loves that.

dmorris68

29-03-2007 11:03:08

[quote7722964bc3="J4320"][quote7722964bc3="Wolfeman"][b7722964bc3]Lets get something straight, Christians are a sub sect of Catholics. [/b7722964bc3] Catholics believe in the Father (God), the son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit (candy?). We pray to Mary and consider her like a saint. We are more about the whole picture than just Jesus. We also get food and booze, SUCKAS!!![/quote7722964bc3]

I'm not so sure if you're right on that one. A Christian is a Christ follower. There are many different subsections of Christianity and Catholicism (they are also Christ followers but they have a different view on things) is one of them; so I'm pretty sure you have it backwards. Christians came before the Catholics. ;)[/quote7722964bc3]
Ah HA! I knew I saw somebody say that. I mistakenly though it was nytrate. Sorry Wolfie, but gotta call you out on that one. Dead wrong, as J4320 and myself have pointed out. Catholicism and Protestantism are both sub-sects of Christianity, not the other way around.

[quote7722964bc3="J4320"][quote7722964bc3="TryinToGetPaid"]This is my whole thing on God. I can believe and live a semi-good life and go to Heaven, or if there is no God, I will die like everyone else. Or I can choose not to believe, and when I die, go to Hell forever, or die like everyone else.[/quote7722964bc3]

There's nothing like looking at salvation as an insurance policy. I'm sure God absolutely loves that.[/quote7722964bc3]
As insincere as that theory might seem on its surface, it's a legitimate philosophy. God has told us what our reward will be for salvation, and it's not really that far off from an insurance policy. Living a righteous life is supposed to be a sacrifice on our part (paying the premiums), in order to "cash in" the policy later. So for many, the hedge bet approach is considered a valid reason to shape up our lives. It shouldn't matter lihowli you come to salvation, or what your reasons are, as long as you do it. However in order to maintain that salvation, the attitude must eventually turn less toward selfish preservation and more towards obedience, sacrifice, and love of others. There's much more to maintaining salvation than there is to just getting there. ;)

Man, I gotta stop replying to these. It's too easy to get suckered into long winded discussions that I don't have time for!

JUNIOR6886

29-03-2007 12:08:25

[quoteec7e659cbb="nytrate"] When you believe that you're going to rise out of the ground and prance around in heaven...what's the motivation for making the most of every day on earth?[/quoteec7e659cbb]

Maybe there isnt much that fun stuff to do in heaven.... I mean is it like staying in a hotel? Are there skateparks? is there candy? Is it possible to have steak in heaven? What if cars were my life's passion and there no cars in heaven? What if theres nothing more to do than sing God's praises for all eternity? Saying "God is teh w00t" would get old after the first few thousand years... cry

TryinToGetPaid

29-03-2007 12:12:13

Heaven is like earth, with no pain. And you can fly, and hang out with other dead good people. Who needs skateparks when they have flyparks?

How do I know? I seen pictures why of course!

good2speed

29-03-2007 12:17:06

[quote4bf0e77fb7="TryinToGetPaid"]Heaven is like earth, with no pain. And you can fly, and hang out with other dead good people. Who needs skateparks when they have flyparks?[/quote4bf0e77fb7]

I say this in the nicest way possible. If heaven is so great why dont more christians seek death more often?

Sure I understand god is against suicide and all that but if heaven is so great why dont you just live in gangland California or go to El Salavador in the heart of MS 13 territory and wait to be shot down. Wouldnt that fullfil a lot. You would be able to go to heaven and live that great after life.

tpkenter

29-03-2007 12:25:59

[quote13b80537a7="dmorris68"]As insincere as that theory might seem on its surface, it's a legitimate philosophy. God has told us what our reward will be for salvation, and it's not really that far off from an insurance policy. Living a righteous life is supposed to be a sacrifice on our part (paying the premiums), in order to "cash in" the policy later. So for many, the hedge bet approach is considered a valid reason to shape up our lives. It shouldn't matter lihowli you come to salvation, or what your reasons are, as long as you do it. However in order to maintain that salvation, the attitude must eventually turn less toward selfish preservation and more towards obedience, sacrifice, and love of others. There's much more to maintaining salvation than there is to just getting there. ;)[/quote13b80537a7]

I'm sorry, I have to disagree. Salvation is a gift from God. We can either accept it or reject it, our choice. We can NEVER live a life good enough to get into heaven. We would have to be perfect and we CAN'T. This is why Jesus came to earth to be a sacrifice for our sins. He WAS perfect. We can all be saved by the sacrifice of Jesus.

As it says in the Bible "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast."

TryinToGetPaid

29-03-2007 12:30:03

Because if you went to Gangland, CA or EveryoneGetsShot, Mexico for the sole purpose of wanting to get killed, that is suicide. Why do people take 50 Xanax? For the sole purpose of wanting to get killed....same thing.

Though, I do not know if God allows suicide victims in his arms. My friend committed suicide, and his brother has seen him several times in their house and he once told him that he was OK. So I dont know shrug

good2speed

29-03-2007 12:47:25

[quoteb7c6f5408e="TryinToGetPaid"]Because if you went to Gangland, CA or EveryoneGetsShot, Mexico for the sole purpose of wanting to get killed, that is suicide. Why do people take 50 Xanax? For the sole purpose of wanting to get killed....same thing.

Though, I do not know if God allows suicide victims in his arms. My friend committed suicide, and his brother has seen him several times in their house and he once told him that he was OK. So I dont know shrug[/quoteb7c6f5408e]

What if you went to help those in gangland find Christ but knew your death would be an end result. In theory youd be doing gods work and your death is just a byproduct of the environment you lived in.

reality is people are scared to die since they are uncertain of an afterlife. I live my life in certainty. I try to do my best for the limited time on earth anything after that is the undefined.

TryinToGetPaid

29-03-2007 12:53:04

Well spreading God's word in a dangerous community is not suicide. There is no way to know death would be your end result. Spreading the word of God to anyone can be dangerous, just a couple weeks ago a couple was killed in the woods for their faith.

nytrate

29-03-2007 12:59:33

LOL @ "spreading the word of God"

no one liked my lit reference? Henry Ford anyone? Hellllllo?

JUNIOR6886

29-03-2007 20:26:36

[quote10a5b93d2f="Twon"] I have and always will maintained that if there is a so called God, and we meet, we will fight. [/quote10a5b93d2f]

Hmmm, seeing as you're not an omnipotent embodiment of perfection, you'd be be at quite a disadvantage.... I recommend kicking him in the nuts to even the score. D

A Hart

30-03-2007 07:03:41

It's hard to believe you guys are still beating this dead horse.

Didn't your parents ever tell you that it is not polite to discuss religion or money in mixed company?

fawker

30-03-2007 08:44:42

"mixed company"

you racist

btw this always makes me question a lot of things...if god allows us to choose whether or not to believe in him and goto his kingdom etc then that is a free will and conscious choice we make on our own (no one else makes the choice) except maybe a miracle or whatever you experienced god. So then it is hard for me to believe god is in control of anything or everything, maybe he has control but its on cruise control. Is god sadistic and likes to watch good people die for no reason at all? That makes me to believe that god does not control what we say and do and that every choice can affect our lives entirely. ex some child has a "late" birthday and can choose whether to go into school a year early or wait a year, obviously this would change his life entirely; different friends, different teachers (possibly), different relationships, even different decision making. It could be that a teacher in school that this kid loved really enjoyed and made a passion of writing and later became a writer or vise versa.
Maybe everything in your life is already set out and you are just a tool yourself. Your whole life story is completely finished and you are just along for the ride, you really aren't controlling anything but you don't know that. What I think might be true is everything in our past molds us who we are and it will always be that way.

I always wonder maybe i should take that right turn instead of a left turn today, where will it lead me? Into a car crash, and 6 months in the hospital? Maybe that right turn took me away from that crash that never happened if i took a left turn. You can always imagine what if i did this or that, the point is you are in control of your life and can do whatever you want. idk wth im talking about and idk if it makes sense at all

J4320

30-03-2007 08:56:27

[quotecd91239715="A Hart"]It's hard to believe you guys are still beating this dead horse.

Didn't your parents ever tell you that it is not polite to discuss religion or money in mixed company?[/quotecd91239715]

Some of us like to hold intelligent conversations instead of avoiding them. It pisses me off when people in here are enjoying this thread and raising their awareness and someone like you comes along and says something ignorant like this.

Wolfeman

30-03-2007 11:57:25

[quoteca7bab1bdf="dmorris68"][quoteca7bab1bdf="J4320"][quoteca7bab1bdf="Wolfeman"][bca7bab1bdf]Lets get something straight, Christians are a sub sect of Catholics. [/bca7bab1bdf] Catholics believe in the Father (God), the son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit (candy?). We pray to Mary and consider her like a saint. We are more about the whole picture than just Jesus. We also get food and booze, SUCKAS!!![/quoteca7bab1bdf]

I'm not so sure if you're right on that one. A Christian is a Christ follower. There are many different subsections of Christianity and Catholicism (they are also Christ followers but they have a different view on things) is one of them; so I'm pretty sure you have it backwards. Christians came before the Catholics. ;)[/quoteca7bab1bdf]
Ah HA! I knew I saw somebody say that. I mistakenly though it was nytrate. Sorry Wolfie, but gotta call you out on that one. Dead wrong, as J4320 and myself have pointed out. Catholicism and Protestantism are both sub-sects of Christianity, not the other way around.[/quoteca7bab1bdf]
My point is that before people were called Christians they were Catholics. When protestants came around they started calling all of them Christians. When someone says they are Christian they are 99% of the time saying they are protestant or non-denominational. Anyone else says who they are (Catholic, Baptist, Evangelical)...

CollidgeGraduit

30-03-2007 12:04:48

[quote363c5f0fdd="Wolfeman"][quote363c5f0fdd="dmorris68"][quote363c5f0fdd="J4320"][quote363c5f0fdd="Wolfeman"][b363c5f0fdd]Lets get something straight, Christians are a sub sect of Catholics. [/b363c5f0fdd] Catholics believe in the Father (God), the son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit (candy?). We pray to Mary and consider her like a saint. We are more about the whole picture than just Jesus. We also get food and booze, SUCKAS!!![/quote363c5f0fdd]

I'm not so sure if you're right on that one. A Christian is a Christ follower. There are many different subsections of Christianity and Catholicism (they are also Christ followers but they have a different view on things) is one of them; so I'm pretty sure you have it backwards. Christians came before the Catholics. ;)[/quote363c5f0fdd]
Ah HA! I knew I saw somebody say that. I mistakenly though it was nytrate. Sorry Wolfie, but gotta call you out on that one. Dead wrong, as J4320 and myself have pointed out. Catholicism and Protestantism are both sub-sects of Christianity, not the other way around.[/quote363c5f0fdd]
My point is that before people were called Christians they were Catholics.[/quote363c5f0fdd]

I have to disagree on that point. The word "Christian" was used to describe those belonging to Christ, at least as far back as 50AD, possibly earlier. The term "Catholic" wasn't coined until after 100AD.

Wolfeman

30-03-2007 12:07:44

Source ME!

J4320

30-03-2007 12:19:12

[quoteaa343694c0="CollidgeGraduit"][quoteaa343694c0="Wolfeman"][quoteaa343694c0="dmorris68"][quoteaa343694c0="J4320"][quoteaa343694c0="Wolfeman"][baa343694c0]Lets get something straight, Christians are a sub sect of Catholics. [/baa343694c0] Catholics believe in the Father (God), the son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit (candy?). We pray to Mary and consider her like a saint. We are more about the whole picture than just Jesus. We also get food and booze, SUCKAS!!![/quoteaa343694c0]

I'm not so sure if you're right on that one. A Christian is a Christ follower. There are many different subsections of Christianity and Catholicism (they are also Christ followers but they have a different view on things) is one of them; so I'm pretty sure you have it backwards. Christians came before the Catholics. ;)[/quoteaa343694c0]
Ah HA! I knew I saw somebody say that. I mistakenly though it was nytrate. Sorry Wolfie, but gotta call you out on that one. Dead wrong, as J4320 and myself have pointed out. Catholicism and Protestantism are both sub-sects of Christianity, not the other way around.[/quoteaa343694c0]
My point is that before people were called Christians they were Catholics.[/quoteaa343694c0]

I have to disagree on that point. The word "Christian" was used to describe those belonging to Christ, at least as far back as 50AD, possibly earlier. The term "Catholic" wasn't coined until after 100AD.[/quoteaa343694c0]

Exactly. You beat me to it. ;)

lieditli

Wolfe -

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity

That should probably have it.

CollidgeGraduit

30-03-2007 12:37:09

[quote7ad82f3a78="J4320"][quote7ad82f3a78="CollidgeGraduit"][quote7ad82f3a78="Wolfeman"][quote7ad82f3a78="dmorris68"][quote7ad82f3a78="J4320"][quote7ad82f3a78="Wolfeman"][b7ad82f3a78]Lets get something straight, Christians are a sub sect of Catholics. [/b7ad82f3a78] Catholics believe in the Father (God), the son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit (candy?). We pray to Mary and consider her like a saint. We are more about the whole picture than just Jesus. We also get food and booze, SUCKAS!!![/quote7ad82f3a78]

I'm not so sure if you're right on that one. A Christian is a Christ follower. There are many different subsections of Christianity and Catholicism (they are also Christ followers but they have a different view on things) is one of them; so I'm pretty sure you have it backwards. Christians came before the Catholics. ;)[/quote7ad82f3a78]
Ah HA! I knew I saw somebody say that. I mistakenly though it was nytrate. Sorry Wolfie, but gotta call you out on that one. Dead wrong, as J4320 and myself have pointed out. Catholicism and Protestantism are both sub-sects of Christianity, not the other way around.[/quote7ad82f3a78]
My point is that before people were called Christians they were Catholics.[/quote7ad82f3a78]

I have to disagree on that point. The word "Christian" was used to describe those belonging to Christ, at least as far back as 50AD, possibly earlier. The term "Catholic" wasn't coined until after 100AD.[/quote7ad82f3a78]

Exactly. You beat me to it. ;)

lieditli

Wolfe -

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity

That should probably have it.[/quote7ad82f3a78]

The wiki entry for Catholic has the date, but the wiki entry only gave a scripture. I googled for some bible timelines, and based on events surrounding that scripture, I narrowed it down to 44-50 AD.

fawker

31-03-2007 01:16:27

wolfman idk who or what told you that but the followers of Christ were called Christians I believe which was after Jesus was resurrected where as the jews did not believe stayed jewish but the ones who believed called themselves Christians.

nytrate

31-03-2007 05:16:29

[quote9f734f65ed="A Hart"]
Didn't your parents ever tell you that it is not polite to discuss religion or money in mixed company?[/quote9f734f65ed]

Well with our mentally challenged President and the recent surge of social-conservatives forcing their way into the government and attempting to legislate their beliefs...yea I think it's proper to discuss it.

The religious-right made Christianity political. They're on a mission to change everyone else and since they can't do it through preaching they have to do it through legislation. It's sickening.

As much as I hate Bush, he definitely played the religious nuts for all they were worth. He promised them everything they wanted so they'd come out in droves and vote for him and then didn't do anything that they wanted once elected. And they still love him!! Gotta love 'faith'!!!!!

I discuss religion all the time. From what I've gathered thus far in life, those who don't want to discuss religion are not very well educated in world religion and spirituality in general and only know a little piece of the puzzle they were brought up around. Discussing it makes them think too hard and...God forbid...makes them think outside the box.

Religious discussion/debate is just as healthy as political discussion. It should only offend if you are insecure in your beliefs.

mgcccstudent88

01-04-2007 20:56:13

Matthew 1125 At that time Jesus said in response "I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes."

People who view themselves as "wise and intellectual ones" whose opinion is almighty do not have the right heart condition to know the truth about god. They do not have the humility. They will not have faith.

People who are as "babes" and willing to follow god and are humble enough to realize their place on earth and their insignificance will have truths revealed.

I believe their exists a loving, forgiving god who created us in his image. If we have a sense of justice about right and wrong, you better damned well believe HE does.

Am i saying to go to some church and let some preacher tell you who god is and what to believe. No. I just want everyone to give god a chance. Learn who he is, what he is about; not how he is portrayed by christianity.

Read the bible. Learn about god. Search for the Truth. Be Humble.

secondjob

01-04-2007 21:48:02

Amen brother!

zr2152

01-04-2007 23:17:44

Its good to know that there are some ppl on here who are open minded about this kinda stuff (unfortunately there are many ppl who are not).

Nice vers. I live the end " Read the bible. Leard about God. Search for the truth. BE HUMBLE."

-nice )

Godrockdj

02-04-2007 08:23:56

Everyone,

I've just read through most of this discussion. I have not been online as much in past weeks and was unable to give this conversation the attention it deserves. Frankly it's a discussion/debate that could go on forever. Some of these questions that have been put forth I do believe have answers that we can faithfully report to others (as some in here have well done ;) ) Some of the questions I will not know the answers until I'm standing in heaven and can ask God Himself why. But I digress. I've said it on here before - an online forum is not the most conducive 'place' to have a discussion of such importance (and it truly is.) These conversations are best done in person, on a regular basis. Or even on the phone. I have many friends of all different backgrounds and beliefs (or lack of) that I do this with. But unless everyone wants to come over and have a party at my house, that won't help too much here ;) So I'll do what I can and say if anyone else is curious or wants to chat more in depth please email me at godrockdj at comcast dot net. That is my personal email, please don't give it out. But shoot me a note if you want to talk more. I was raised Catholic (Ukrainian), abandoned that, and came to a relationship with Christ in high school. That's where I am and always will be ) So please feel free to email!

zr2152

02-04-2007 11:32:27

[quotebd73e4914c="Godrockdj"]Everyone,

I've just read through most of this discussion. I have not been online as much in past weeks and was unable to give this conversation the attention it deserves. Frankly it's a discussion/debate that could go on forever. Some of these questions that have been put forth I do believe have answers that we can faithfully report to others (as some in here have well done ;) ) Some of the questions I will not know the answers until I'm standing in heaven and can ask God Himself why. But I digress. I've said it on here before - an online forum is not the most conducive 'place' to have a discussion of such importance (and it truly is.) These conversations are best done in person, on a regular basis. Or even on the phone. I have many friends of all different backgrounds and beliefs (or lack of) that I do this with. But unless everyone wants to come over and have a party at my house, that won't help too much here ;) So I'll do what I can and say if anyone else is curious or wants to chat more in depth please email me at godrockdj at comcast dot net. That is my personal email, please don't give it out. But shoot me a note if you want to talk more. I was raised Catholic (Ukrainian), abandoned that, and came to a relationship with Christ in high school. That's where I am and always will be ) So please feel free to email![/quotebd73e4914c]

Yo ill come over and we can chat. I live in PA right now. haha

Godrockdj

02-04-2007 19:15:48

[quotee367409cf4="zr2152"][quotee367409cf4="Godrockdj"]Everyone,

I've just read through most of this discussion. I have not been online as much in past weeks and was unable to give this conversation the attention it deserves. Frankly it's a discussion/debate that could go on forever. Some of these questions that have been put forth I do believe have answers that we can faithfully report to others (as some in here have well done ;) ) Some of the questions I will not know the answers until I'm standing in heaven and can ask God Himself why. But I digress. I've said it on here before - an online forum is not the most conducive 'place' to have a discussion of such importance (and it truly is.) These conversations are best done in person, on a regular basis. Or even on the phone. I have many friends of all different backgrounds and beliefs (or lack of) that I do this with. But unless everyone wants to come over and have a party at my house, that won't help too much here ;) So I'll do what I can and say if anyone else is curious or wants to chat more in depth please email me at godrockdj at comcast dot net. That is my personal email, please don't give it out. But shoot me a note if you want to talk more. I was raised Catholic (Ukrainian), abandoned that, and came to a relationship with Christ in high school. That's where I am and always will be ) So please feel free to email![/quotee367409cf4]

Yo ill come over and we can chat. I live in PA right now. haha[/quotee367409cf4]

Hey that's cool o Easter is of course this Sunday, everyone in the area is welcome to visit my church www.getvictory.net There will be tons of food and talk time after service! The whole fipg PA posse is welcome

zr2152

02-04-2007 22:58:26

( Ill be in ohio with family.

Dave82

09-04-2007 01:52:31

EDIT Basically rather than writing a check 4 times per month, I just did it all in one check (same amount as all 4 checks totaled) once per month. Someone from the church called and inquired why i was not donating every week and I explained what I was doing. He said that I should be donating the amount of my once-per-month check one-per-week. I never filled out my income on the forms so it just irritated me that he was asking for more money from me when he did not know my fiancial situation. He knows I do not have kids etc, but that is all he knew.

=======================

And I dont want to make a new post to bump this all the way to the top, but i gather it passes through mods when edited, so...

DMorris, I understand what you wrote and yes it makes sense. I believe in donating to help run the church etc, it just pissed me off that without knowing my life/financial situation he is asking for more money. And although I do not have any kids, my fiance and I are currently helping out my brother and her cousin so money is tight. He could have instead told me the importance of donating and left it on me to look at my situation whether I was donating enough or not.

I wanted to say something to him too, but I did not know him and I could not think of a nice way to get my message through at the moment of our phone conversation.

JUNIOR6886

09-04-2007 06:28:02

you should've been like "i dunno why god needs money... i mean since hes ominpresent and omnipotent he could work like 8478979857 jobs at once no prob" shrug

dmorris68

10-04-2007 20:04:12

It's called tithes. The Bible teaches that you should tithe 10% of your income to the church. Personally I believe in a variation of that, as my mother did, that says if I see a needy person, my tithes may go to them instead of the church. The idea being that you're giving from your heart in God's name.

That said, it's important to give to the church too. It isn't money "for God" but for the church. Churches are expensive to operate (they aren't free!) and most pastors have no other income since being a proper pastor to a decent sized congregation is a full-time (and even more so) responsibility. Therefore tithes and offerings go towards the operational expenses of the church, including charity the church itself provides to needy members and other causes, and also usually goes towards putting food on the pastor and his family's table. Some congregations are quite lax about consistent tithes, which forces the pastor and/or his wife to work, which takes their time away from the church itself. I have a brother-in-law that pastors a tiny church in New Mexico. The congregation rarely gives offering, so he and his family struggle, often times not eating. He and his wife work menial jobs to get by, because neither can work a "professional" job to make a decent wage, since the hours required would take too much away from their church responsibilities. The church's "home office" pays them a pittance salary so they always have a trickle of income regardless, but it's not enough to support his family.

So don't make the common mistake of thinking that all church offerings/tithes are some sort of scam. Granted, there have been and always will be churches who scam and pastors who live well beyond their appropriate means, but it's more the exception than the rule.

That said, Dave82, I suggest that the person who called you was totally in the wrong. A person's financial support to the church is ultimately between him/her and God, and should not be a "hard sell" subject beyond the pulpit. It's fine for a pastor to remind everyone during a sermon that they have a responsibility to help support the church, but it's NOT okay for "church telemarketers" to pressure you individually into donating. IMO anyway...

Disclaimer I'm not a member of any church currently and do not give offering to a church. However we do help the needy on occasion.

tpkenter

10-04-2007 21:54:35

[quotec41c174759="dmorris68"]So don't make the common mistake of thinking that all church offerings/tithes are some sort of scam. Granted, there have been and always will be churches who scam and pastors who live well beyond their appropriate means, but it's more the exception than the rule.

That said, Dave82, I suggest that the person who called you was totally in the wrong. A person's financial support to the church is ultimately between him/her and God, and should not be a "hard sell" subject beyond the pulpit. It's fine for a pastor to remind everyone during a sermon that they have a responsibility to help support the church, but it's NOT okay for "church telemarketers" to pressure you individually into donating. IMO anyway...

Disclaimer I'm not a member of any church currently and do not give offering to a church. However we do help the needy on occasion.[/quotec41c174759]

You are soo right! Most pastors do NOT live beyond their means. Also, I love your term "church telemarketers"! That's exactly what this person was. A person's financial support to their church IS between him/her and God.

By the way, I am a member of a church and do give an offering every week. My husband and I decide on the amount. We do get a receipt at the end of each year for taxes. We also try to help anyone that we can.

I would like to say that it is great to read on this site that many people are helping others. Especially since many of you are so young. It's so good to see the next generation taking care of their fellow man/woman.

zr2152

10-04-2007 22:16:55

I give money to Children.org from an offer that I signed up for on a freebie site...$22/month for Hector )

JUNIOR6886

17-04-2007 08:18:36

Id be willing to go back to church if this was my preacher
"whose name you comin' in? By who power?"
"Bitch im flowin' straight from the survival scrolls!"

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwsWskgKe5E

CollidgeGraduit

17-04-2007 09:00:41

JUNIOR6886, can you PLEASE quit trying to derail the discussion with "comedy"?

bruman

18-03-2008 23:24:17

I was thinking a lot about religion tonight and came across this thread. I Just read it all and it was very informative.

My take on this subject is basically I find it hard to affiliate myself with one religion because there are so many religions worldwide and throughout history. I find it hard to believe that just one knows the real truth when they are ALL claiming to have answers. Religion just seems to be based on the year/era someone was born, the ancestry into which someone was born, the region/geographic area in which someone was born and the language in which someone was born. I don't see how a loving God would discriminate based on these terms. A couple examples of this are being born back in the day when most religions believed in polytheism rather than monotheism and also Christianity and the subsets of it all, to my knowledge, think that if you don't believe in their God that you will not be saved. Well what about people of different regions and different cultures who do not even know what Christianity is (or can even speak of it), are they somehow "destined" to go to hell?
The fact is we are all human, every single one of us.
It would be great to go to sleep every night and be on your deathbed KNOWING with in your mind with all certainty that you are going to a better place when you die. I'm sure it would be a very soothing and peaceful feeling. But I just don't see how, thinking in the broader context of global humanness, I can believe in a religion. The world is just too diverse.

Nonetheless I do believe with my heart that there is a higher power/afterlife (although I realize anything is possible). It is all just [i9260f648b1]too[/i9260f648b1] perfect.

Thinking about this it makes sense to me that if there is an afterlife it would be

-Beyond the body
-Beyond three-dimensional space and time
-Beyond culture
and
-Beyond language

I'm not so sure the truth can even be SAID. Language is just a human-constructed symbol and rather weak on a cosmic scale it would seem.

That being said I'm more apt to a spiritual lifestyle than a religious one. I would love to be proven wrong in any regards.. I'm completely an open book right now but as of now I'm not really seeing it any other way. So comments are appreciated )

J4320

18-03-2008 23:30:20

It's funny how we humans think we're so important.

bruman

18-03-2008 23:34:10

[quotec7e0a96987="J4320"]It's funny how we humans think we're so important.[/quotec7e0a96987]

I was going to says its funny how we're even alive in this moment in time right now. If you think about it we're floating on a giant rock through an inconceivably large space and we really don't know why. Our entire existence is a living mystery and there are SO many things we don't know. I love it. And it is quite humorous... even more so that we are able to talk about it.

J4320

18-03-2008 23:40:36

I'm probably gonna make a huge post in this thread eventually, but I just want to comment on thoughts on the afterlife. I'm not scared of it. I always imagine it as feeling exactly as it felt before I was born. I don't see why people get so caught up in religion. Deep down it's usually because they feel they need to be a part of something or they're scared of the afterlife. Tying in with what bruman said earlier, one of my favorite quotes is ---

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." ---- Stephen Roberts

And to throw a little more at ya for the hell of it ---

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." ----- Seneca the Younger 4

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" --- Epicurus

And finally.....

"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."

I'll have more input for this thread if it heats up again. I seemed to have missed it the first time around. Anyway, I still go to church because I'm in a Christian family and I respect my parents who still want me to go to church. They know I'm an atheist/agnostic though. Some of the stuff in church isn't always bad, the preacher there is actually kind of a cool guy and he has some great morals and ideas to teach. However, I do kind of cringe when he refers to everyone as "sheep." I would personally take that as an insult but I guess not everyone thinks that way. lol

bruman

19-03-2008 00:12:27

Those are nice quotes. J4320, if you could I would like to know what it felt like before you were born? I sure as hell don't know. If you know that then you also must know what it felt like to BE born... and I don't think anyone can remember that.

For the afterlife I do think I can see how reincarnation would work. I just am not sure if there is a "waiting room" (call it Heaven or whatever) before that. I would think there is something but am not sure. Then there is ghosts... I mean I believe in ghosts. I believe in spirits. If they were to exist than that would contradict a lot of religions. If I had to guess what a ghost would be it would be someone who has died but has not yet "seen the light".

finsfan07

19-03-2008 00:13:38

[quotea5677d376e="JUNIOR6886"][quotea5677d376e="nytrate"] When you believe that you're going to rise out of the ground and prance around in heaven...what's the motivation for making the most of every day on earth?[/quotea5677d376e]

Maybe there isnt much that fun stuff to do in heaven.... I mean is it like staying in a hotel? Are there skateparks? is there candy? Is it possible to have steak in heaven? What if cars were my life's passion and there no cars in heaven? What if theres nothing more to do than sing God's praises for all eternity? Saying "God is teh w00t" would get old after the first few thousand years... cry[/quotea5677d376e]
Dude, im not sure if your joking lol, but that's exactly the same way i feel, i kinda get scare of the thought of going to heaven and say "Praise God" Forever, i mean when i sometimes go to church for a service, it feels like im there all day and i get so bored, so imagine that forever, creepy thought.

J4320

19-03-2008 00:24:52

[quote10473fdd92="bruman"]Those are nice quotes. J4320, if you could I would like to know what it felt like before you were born? I sure as hell don't know. If you know that then you also must know what it felt like to BE born... and I don't think anyone can remember that.[/quote10473fdd92]

You're missing the point. What I was saying was that my best guess at the afterlife is --- once you're gone, you're gone. You don't feel it. You're not in existence. You are not cognitive. Your millions upon millions of cells that made up your body are not in operation anymore. You just don't exist. Your brain is the thing that is enabling you to be conscious and alive. When your brain is dead you are simply not going to experience or see anything. It's over. You won't be stuck in a state of blackness, you won't be in an imaginary heaven or hell, you'll come face to face with your own existence and you won't be thinking or worrying when you're dead. We are just multicellular organisms. It's not any different when bacteria dies.

[quote10473fdd92="finsfan07"][quote10473fdd92="JUNIOR6886"][quote10473fdd92="nytrate"] When you believe that you're going to rise out of the ground and prance around in heaven...what's the motivation for making the most of every day on earth?[/quote10473fdd92]

Maybe there isnt much that fun stuff to do in heaven.... I mean is it like staying in a hotel? Are there skateparks? is there candy? Is it possible to have steak in heaven? What if cars were my life's passion and there no cars in heaven? What if theres nothing more to do than sing God's praises for all eternity? Saying "God is teh w00t" would get old after the first few thousand years... cry[/quote10473fdd92]
Dude, im not sure if your joking lol, but that's exactly the same way i feel, i kinda get scare of the thought of going to heaven and say "Praise God" Forever, i mean when i sometimes go to church for a service, it feels like im there all day and i get so bored, so imagine that forever, creepy thought.[/quote10473fdd92]

LMAO!

I've thought the EXACT same thing when I was younger. My grandma always talked about worshiping god at his throne for eternity and I was like... wow... I'd get bored after the first 2,000 years. lol

Of course, most Christians believe that your spirit will be different and it won't be that way.

Anyway, I'm gonna just go ahead and put my last post here because I hate it when it gets cut off at the end of the page and people miss it. Here it is --

[b10473fdd92] (skip if you already read on last page)[/b10473fdd92]
"I'm probably gonna make a huge post in this thread eventually, but I just want to comment on thoughts on the afterlife. I'm not scared of it. I always imagine it as feeling exactly as it felt before I was born. I don't see why people get so caught up in religion. Deep down it's usually because they feel they need to be a part of something or they're scared of the afterlife. Tying in with what bruman said earlier, one of my favorite quotes is ---

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." ---- Stephen Roberts

And to throw a little more at ya for the hell of it ---

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." ----- Seneca the Younger 4

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" --- Epicurus

And finally.....

"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."

I'll have more input for this thread if it heats up again. I seemed to have missed it the first time around. Anyway, I still go to church because I'm in a Christian family and I respect my parents who still want me to go to church. They know I'm an atheist/agnostic though. Some of the stuff in church isn't always bad, the preacher there is actually kind of a cool guy and he has some great morals and ideas to teach. However, I do kind of cringe when he refers to everyone as "sheep." I would personally take that as an insult but I guess not everyone thinks that way. lol"

bruman

19-03-2008 00:28:05

[quotec3111dd804="J4320"][quotec3111dd804="bruman"]Those are nice quotes. J4320, if you could I would like to know what it felt like before you were born? I sure as hell don't know. If you know that then you also must know what it felt like to BE born... and I don't think anyone can remember that.[/quotec3111dd804]

You're missing the point. What I was saying was that my best guess at the afterlife is --- once you're gone, you're gone. You don't feel it. You're not in existence. You are not cognitive. Your millions upon millions of cells that made up your body are not in operation anymore. You just don't exist. Your brain is the thing that is enabling you to be conscious and alive. When your brain is dead you are simply not going to experience or see anything. It's over. You won't be stuck in a state of blackness, you won't be in an imaginary heaven or hell, you'll come face to face with your own existence and you won't be thinking or worrying when you're dead. We are just multicellular organisms. It's not any different when bacteria dies.[/quotec3111dd804]

Sounds like you're a positivst as well.

I like to think there is a soul... a spiritual being beyond the physical body.

J4320

19-03-2008 00:35:09

I don't throw out the possibility but why should I believe that? Why would you believe in ghosts and spirits and souls? Of course they aren't confirmed NOT to exist but they are far-fetched and primitive to me. Of course there is paranormal phenomena but I don't think it has anything to do with ghosts and etc. There are still things outside the realm of science that cannot be explained. I know my position on things is kind of hard to reach your mind around to when we are kind of brought up to believe this stuff and all, but the more you look into this stuff and search the more of a skeptic you'll become.

edit -- I see you changed your post around a little. I was answering the "Why don't you believe in spirits?" post. ;)

ajasax

19-03-2008 09:55:36

I don't think I've commented in this thread yet. My family is strongly Roman Catholic. When I'm in church I'm constantly thinking of how transparent my entire religion is. I don't think we should worship a human being alone. There are countless martyrs throughout history, and Jesus happened to have the biggest following. I realize that people follow a religion not only because they were born into it, but also because people are afraid to be free-floating. They don't want to be on their death bed and at least have some kind of assurance that they will be taken care of in the "after-life." I also understand that another good benefit of religion is as a facility for good morals and discipline. Attending church services or being a "saint" shouldn't be deciding factor as to who will enter heaven. As long as one lives a relatively productive life and takes things in moderation, one should have the same benefits after death.

The problems I have with the Catholicism are its nonacceptance of other religious beliefs. "You shall worship me alone." Also of its intolerance of taboos such as homosexuality. I once heard that Catholic kids cuss the most out of all other religions. It's basic human behavior keep something taboo, and it will overrun instead.

As for me, I guess I'm agnostic. I'm not afraid of death. In fact, when my time comes, I'll be excited to finally learn what the after-life will actually bring. Some times I go into deep thought about how mind-boggling our existence is. It's sort of an OOBE. I think the human brain wasn't meant to be able to wrap itself around the "greatest question." In the meantime I think I will instill Catholic-like morals in my children for the sake of giving them a guide to follow. Humans need some kind of order to their lives. Widespread atheism would cause mayhem. However, I will still support my children's right to question Catholicism as a sole answer to human life.

Berky34

19-03-2008 14:24:46

J4 I love those quotes you put up. I think me and you have pretty similar thoughts on religion. My mother's side is Jewish and my father's is Catholic. I'm atheist/agnostic but I've been leaning more so on the atheist side with a touch of spirituality/higher order to the universe itself. But not of a God that's all controlling or something.

I think religion is great though, like ajasax said, it gives people a moral compass and a way to guide their life. Whatever people want to believe is fine with me, who am I to judge?

TravMan162

19-03-2008 14:31:46

Here we go, this is going to be a doozie.

You know, my whole life I've been a thinker and I've over-analyzed everything there is to think about. I have this obsessive tendency to understand things; how they work, what their purpose is, what a more effective way of doing it would be, etc, etc, etc. Naturally, religion has come up in my ponderings on more than one occasion.

I grew up being forced to go to church, (Catholic) and when I became old enough to think on my own and make my own conclusions, I began to realize that something just seemed off about the church to me. It centered itself around this whole idea that the only way into heaven is by going to church every week, donating and repenting. They didn't talk about what it was to be a good person and to do right by your neighbor and help those in need. In fact, there was no modern application of the religion itself whatsoever. I honestly as if I were participating in some strange cult. You have the leader and you spend an hour chanting the same thing week in and week out at his command.

No one took the time to wonder what the point of this was and how this mindless repetition of a few paragraphs was really going to get you to a better place when you died. It made absolutely no sense to me. It made more sense to me that you live life trying to be a good person and live with some general morals and always try to do the right thing. I figured that would be far more enlightening and spiritually sound than going to a church and saying a pre-scripted prayer every week.

I started to think that religion was just a made up set of morals and truths intended to keep people in line according to how a few people wanted them to. Funny how most nations generally have one major religion. Funny how most of these nations' leaders are a part of this religion. Funny how many countries force you to take part in this religion and intertwine church and state. Hmmmm. Interesting.

So anyway, I decided to read the whole bible. It was really convenient because as I was reading, I was in a history class that was going through all the religions from their beginnings.

I noticed a lot of weird, weird things. For instance. Let's take the Old Testament. For a god that is supposed to be good and pure and is supposed to be worshiped as such, he sure was pretty mean. He was constantly killing people, destroying things, and kind of being a menace to be honest. Yell at me, call me a blasphemist, whatever, look at it. 7 plagues, Great Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc, etc, etc. He wasn't very nice. The Old Testament was effective in keeping people in line for the simple fear of causing god's wrath if they didn't.

Then things changed. Then you have the New Testament and everything changes. We go from being scared straight, to being inspired. There was no inspiration in the Old Testament. It was all "if you don't abide by these rules, something really terrible is going to happen."

Enter Jesus. Now we're not so scared anymore. The religion changed gears on us and used inspirational stories to motivate us to want to work to get into heaven as opposed to being scared of God's Wrath in this world and Hell in the next. Complete 180 degree turn around and a complete new way of looking at things. Hm. Strange. Is God the enforcer of the law, or is God a good, pure and forgiving entity? If you read the bible, you'll have no freaking idea.

Moreover, how DO you pick what religion is right? They are ultimately all a bunch of rules and regulations that keep your eye on the prize. They are all different according to what area of the world you live in. So let's say I spend my whole life going to church every day, donating, abiding by the ten commandments, spreading the word and learning my faith, and I die just to find out that Buddhism was really the right religion, I never got enlightened and now I need to get reincarnated and try again. Bull shit.

The way I see it, the best thing you can do is not limit yourself to a faith and call it a day. I believe that religion is a man made tool to give us some sort of ridiculous explanation of what happens when we cease to exist. Of course we made up heaven and hell. We believe that if we're good, we should get rewarded and if we're bad we should be punished. I would hope that the afterlife is a little more complicated then something as linear as this. I would hope that the afterlife would be something that is as incomprehendable as death itself and wouldn't be able to have its code cracked with as simple a mantra is that.

That is disappointing at best. There is so much we don't understand about the world alone, let alone the universe and our ultimate reason for being here. And if it's as easily explainable as "good earns reward, bad gets punished," then something is off.

Now this is not a knock on any people that practice a religion. I believe to each his own and if you want to believe in something as some sort of guide in which to live your life, then so be it, and I wish you the best of luck. But I personally believe that religion as we know it is far too linear to truly explain why things are the way they are.

There's more, but I'm sick of typing. Let's keep this rolling, this is really interesting.

J4320

19-03-2008 14:35:15

[quotee26a84b485="Berky34"]J4 I love those quotes you put up. I think me and you have pretty similar thoughts on religion. My mother's side is Jewish and my father's is Catholic. I'm atheist/agnostic but I've been leaning more so on the atheist side with a touch of spirituality/higher order to the universe itself. But not of a God that's all controlling or something.

I think religion is great though, like ajasax said, it gives people a moral compass and a way to guide their life. Whatever people want to believe is fine with me, who am I to judge?[/quotee26a84b485]

Yeah, I haven't really thrown out the possibility of a greater power but I tend to have a more natural view on our universe. Although, for all we know, our universe could be inside an alien kid's marble. lol

Ajasax --- As a secular humanist, I don't agree with you on your statement about widespread atheism causing mayhem. In Scandinavian countries and etc. the majority of people there are atheists (if I'm not mistaken) and they actually have a more peaceful society than ours with a lower crime rate and etc (not to say that atheism is the prime cause of that, but it is interesting to look at). If humans are brought up with good morals, they'll usually keep them. Religion isn't needed to teach us right from wrong. It's a misconception to think that without religion there would be mayhem; I think killing each other over who has the best imaginary friend is mayhem enough.

I did a quick google search and found this --

http//atheism.about.com/b/2004/12/26/atheism-theism-and-violence.htm

Check it out.

Berky34

19-03-2008 14:57:42

[quote70185bd90f="J4320"][quote70185bd90f="Berky34"]J4 I love those quotes you put up. I think me and you have pretty similar thoughts on religion. My mother's side is Jewish and my father's is Catholic. I'm atheist/agnostic but I've been leaning more so on the atheist side with a touch of spirituality/higher order to the universe itself. But not of a God that's all controlling or something.

I think religion is great though, like ajasax said, it gives people a moral compass and a way to guide their life. Whatever people want to believe is fine with me, who am I to judge?[/quote70185bd90f]

Yeah, I haven't really thrown out the possibility of a greater power but I tend to have a more natural view on our universe. Although, for all we know, our universe could be inside an alien kid's marble. lol[/quote70185bd90f]
Like that one in Men In Black? That's what I always think about. lol

J4 to follow up with what you said
Written by Penn Jillette

http//www.thisibelieve.org/dsp_ShowEssay.php?uid=34
[quote70185bd90f] There is No God

As heard on NPR's Morning Edition, November 21, 2005.

I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism. Atheism is not believing in God. Not believing in God is easy -- you can't prove a negative, so there's no work to do. You can't prove that there isn't an elephant inside the trunk of my car. You sure? How about now? Maybe he was just hiding before. Check again. Did I mention that my personal heartfelt definition of the word "elephant" includes mystery, order, goodness, love and a spare tire?

So, anyone with a love for truth outside of herself has to start with no belief in God and then look for evidence of God. She needs to search for some objective evidence of a supernatural power. All the people I write e-mails to often are still stuck at this searching stage. The atheism part is easy.

But, this "This I Believe" thing seems to demand something more personal, some leap of faith that helps one see life's big picture, some rules to live by. So, I'm saying, "This I believe I believe there is no God."

Having taken that step, it informs every moment of my life. I'm not greedy. I have love, blue skies, rainbows and Hallmark cards, and that has to be enough. It has to be enough, but it's everything in the world and everything in the world is plenty for me. It seems just rude to beg the invisible for more. Just the love of my family that raised me and the family I'm raising now is enough that I don't need heaven. I won the huge genetic lottery and I get joy every day.

Believing there's no God means I can't really be forgiven except by kindness and faulty memories. That's good; it makes me want to be more thoughtful. I have to try to treat people right the first time around.

Believing there's no God stops me from being solipsistic. I can read ideas from all different people from all different cultures. Without God, we can agree on reality, and I can keep learning where I'm wrong. We can all keep adjusting, so we can really communicate. I don't travel in circles where people say, "I have faith, I believe this in my heart and nothing you can say or do can shake my faith." That's just a long-winded religious way to say, "shut up," or another two words that the FCC likes less. But all obscenity is less insulting than, "How I was brought up and my imaginary friend means more to me than anything you can ever say or do." So, believing there is no God lets me be proven wrong and that's always fun. It means I'm learning something.

Believing there is no God means the suffering I've seen in my family, and indeed all the suffering in the world, isn't caused by an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent force that isn't bothered to help or is just testing us, but rather something we all may be able to help others with in the future. No God means the possibility of less suffering in the future.

Believing there is no God gives me more room for belief in family, people, love, truth, beauty, sex, Jell-O and all the other things I can prove and that make this life the best life I will ever have.

Penn Jillette is the taller, louder half of the magic and comedy act Penn and Teller. He is a research fellow at the Cato Institute and has lectured at Oxford and MIT. Penn has co-authored three best-selling books and is executive producer of the documentary film, �The Aristocrats.�

Independently produced for NPR by Jay Allison and Dan Gediman with Emily Botein and Viki Merrick. Photo by Nubar Alexanian.[/quote70185bd90f]

J4320

19-03-2008 15:02:36

[quotee6f512aa10="Berky34"][quotee6f512aa10="J4320"][quotee6f512aa10="Berky34"]J4 I love those quotes you put up. I think me and you have pretty similar thoughts on religion. My mother's side is Jewish and my father's is Catholic. I'm atheist/agnostic but I've been leaning more so on the atheist side with a touch of spirituality/higher order to the universe itself. But not of a God that's all controlling or something.

I think religion is great though, like ajasax said, it gives people a moral compass and a way to guide their life. Whatever people want to believe is fine with me, who am I to judge?[/quotee6f512aa10]

Yeah, I haven't really thrown out the possibility of a greater power but I tend to have a more natural view on our universe. Although, for all we know, our universe could be inside an alien kid's marble. lol[/quotee6f512aa10]
Like that one in Men In Black? That's what I always think about. lol[/quotee6f512aa10]

Yeah that's what I was thinking of when I said that. lol

EatChex89

19-03-2008 15:09:49

[quotebd755ab418="J4320"][quotebd755ab418="Berky34"][quotebd755ab418="J4320"][quotebd755ab418="Berky34"]J4 I love those quotes you put up. I think me and you have pretty similar thoughts on religion. My mother's side is Jewish and my father's is Catholic. I'm atheist/agnostic but I've been leaning more so on the atheist side with a touch of spirituality/higher order to the universe itself. But not of a God that's all controlling or something.

I think religion is great though, like ajasax said, it gives people a moral compass and a way to guide their life. Whatever people want to believe is fine with me, who am I to judge?[/quotebd755ab418]

Yeah, I haven't really thrown out the possibility of a greater power but I tend to have a more natural view on our universe. Although, for all we know, our universe could be inside an alien kid's marble. lol[/quotebd755ab418]
Like that one in Men In Black? That's what I always think about. lol[/quotebd755ab418]

Yeah that's what I was thinking of when I said that. lol[/quotebd755ab418]

I prefer to think of us inside a locker.

Innocuous

19-03-2008 15:46:55

I went to Catholic school from Kind - Highschool. Eh \

TravMan162

19-03-2008 15:51:38

[quote4c7d282e37="Innocuous"]I went to Catholic school from Kind - Highschool. Eh \[/quote4c7d282e37]

i take it you didn't like it too much, eh?

nice first post, welcome D

J4320

19-03-2008 15:53:21

[quote54b72be2d8="TravMan162"]I noticed a lot of weird, weird things. For instance. Let's take the Old Testament. For a god that is supposed to be good and pure and is supposed to be worshiped as such, he sure was pretty mean. He was constantly killing people, destroying things, and kind of being a menace to be honest. Yell at me, call me a blasphemist, whatever, look at it. 7 plagues, Great Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc, etc, etc. He wasn't very nice. The Old Testament was effective in keeping people in line for the simple fear of causing god's wrath if they didn't.[/quote54b72be2d8]

No worries about sounding blasphemous. It's a victimless crime. ;)

Indeed, the Christian/Judaic god has the temper of a little child in the Old Testament. Check this site out --

http//skepticsannotatedbible.com/

You can browse through different categories like absurdities and intolerance and etc. There's some funny stuff in the Bible. lol

liNoteli Be aware that that site does take some things out of context. However, there is still some outrageous stuff in there that's right on target.

[quote54b72be2d8="TravMan162"]Enter Jesus. Now we're not so scared anymore. The religion changed gears on us and used inspirational stories to motivate us to want to work to get into heaven as opposed to being scared of God's Wrath in this world and Hell in the next. Complete 180 degree turn around and a complete new way of looking at things. Hm. Strange. Is God the enforcer of the law, or is God a good, pure and forgiving entity? If you read the bible, you'll have no freaking idea.[/quote54b72be2d8]

You have to understand that the god of the Old Testament is the god of Judaism so when you slap the NT and the OT together it may seem strange to see such a seemingly two-faced god. According to Christianity, the whole point of Jesus was to create new law and die for the sins of mankind so we would no longer be bound by the harshness of the old ways. The people of the Jewish faith do not believe that Jesus was the messiah. Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet, but not a god. Oh and also, according to Christianity, all you have to do is accept Jesus as your personal savior in order to get to heaven. The New Testament stresses that over doing good works or being a good person. You seemed to have missed that part in your readings. ;)

[quote54b72be2d8="TravMan162"]Moreover, how DO you pick what religion is right? They are ultimately all a bunch of rules and regulations that keep your eye on the prize. They are all different according to what area of the world you live in. So let's say I spend my whole life going to church every day, donating, abiding by the ten commandments, spreading the word and learning my faith, and I die just to find out that Buddhism was really the right religion, I never got enlightened and now I need to get reincarnated and try again. Bull shit.[/quote54b72be2d8]

Ask someone why they think their religion is the right one out of the hundreds of others. They'll have a hard time answering. They'll probably say that it's the one that makes the most sense and etc. The bottom line is, no religion makes any sense. Ask them if Muslims go to hell (or if you're talking to a Muslim mention some other religious group). When they say yes, ask them if it's fair that a boy in Pakistan who grew up as a Muslim and eventually died should have to go to hell. Islam is their culture. Even if a Muslim had the chance to hear of Christianity before, you can't just expect them to automatically convert to it the first time they hear it. It's just as absurd to think that a Christian would convert over to Islam when he heard of it.

Anyway, I do like some of the ideas of Christianity and Buddhism. If you actually read the things that Jesus said, you'll probably come to like him. One of my favorite stories in the Bible is -----

[quote54b72be2d8="John 81-11"] 1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

11"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."[/quote54b72be2d8]

Jesus said a lot of cool stuff and he's a very interesting person to study. I also like some of the ideas of Buddhism. Check out the 14 precepts of engaged Buddhism ----

http//buddhism.kalachakranet.org/resources/14_precepts.html

The first 3 are just plain awesome.

[b54b72be2d8]1
Do not be idolatrous about or bound to any doctrine, theory, or ideology, even Buddhist ones. Buddhist systems of thought are guiding means; they are not absolute truth.

2
Do not think the knowledge you presently possess is changeless, absolute truth. Avoid being narrow minded and bound to present views. Learn and practice nonattachment from views in order to be open to receive others' viewpoints. Truth is found in life and not merely in conceptual knowledge. Be ready to learn throughout your entire life and to observe reality in yourself and in the world at all times.

3
Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education. However, through compassionate dialogue, help others renounce fanaticism and narrow-mindedness.[/b54b72be2d8]

Now there's something to live your life by. I agree with almost all of those precepts. I don't want to follow any ideas of modest living though. It's just not in me to do that. As far as I can tell, I only get one life. I want to spend it doing things that will bring me the most enjoyment without harming others. Of course, I know that money doesn't necessarily lead to happiness but I still wouldn't mind having a good amount of it. P