$20?

I was wandering if anyone could loan me $20.00 paypal till this saturday? +++K for anyone who can help.


PS I'm getting paid $250.00 this saturday by trainn so you know i'm good for it 8)

i dont support the war

although i'm pro-choice and not very fond of this war it is not because of those morals that i think your avatar is pretty stupid

also, you should be like "i'll pay you back 25 " that way people get something out of it besides that good feeling

I also think that it's an idiotic avatar. Add the number of iraqi civilians killed to the top figure, and also know that these issues (abortion and Iraq war) aren't clear cut republican/democratic issues.

Number of people the Catholic church has killed MILLIONS...

Back fire!

I've been waiting for a long time to say something. I can't stand religion forcing its views onto people that don't want it or need it...

Number of people killed in the name of religion/god/allah/faith - many more than your 40 million abortions.

if anyone is interested in reading a very interesting and important position paper from the society for adolescent health about the current administration and their warping of human sexual health...go here
http//www.adolescenthealth.org/PositionPaper_Abstinence_only_edu_policies_and_programs.pdf
figured it related to the silly avatar, in some way

[quoteab261cba16="irannaked"]i dont support the war[/quoteab261cba16]

WTF? You obviously don't understand my avatar. My avatar is comparing the casualties of the war in iraq to the casualties of abortion. I supported the war when it first started back when we where fighting a clear cut war with the goal of finding WMD and liberating a country from a fascist dictatorship. But now where so afraid of what the enemy might think. Meanwhile there decapitating our soldiers aswell as inocent civilians. And no one really seems to give a shit. People are blamming Bush for things that aren't his own doings. Impeach Donald Rumsfeld. Not Bush.


[quoteab261cba16="wolfeman"]I've been waiting for a long time to say something. I can't stand religion forcing its views onto people that don't want it or need it...[/quoteab261cba16]

Once again. What dose me being pro life have to do with religion? Thats pretty close minded of you to say. I know alot of non religious people who are staunchly pro life. If anything you should say you "can't stand" my political views.



[quoteab261cba16="wolfeman"]Number of people the Catholic church has killed MILLIONS...[/quoteab261cba16]

Fist off i'm not Catholic. Secondly what believers in catholithism did a few hundred years ago had nothing to do with me or my views at all. Thirdly if your going to say what you just did you should really note how many people have been killed [bab261cba16]becouse[/bab261cba16] of there religion! That number is far greater than than the one you listed. Nazism, The KKK..etc all target Judaism as a subject of there hatred. The fucking Nazis killed any Jew they could get there hands on and still do. Thats what the holocaust was all about.

Since you all seem to think i'm Catholic. Lets make one thing clear. I'm NOT! I am a Christian. My political views have little to do with my religious views.

Funny how everyone who has called my avatar "stupid" is pretty obviously
liberal. While pretty much the olny other conservative on this forum (h3x) supported it. Funny isn't it hehehhehe?

Also I am no longer in need of the $20.

Can anyone say threadjack?

[quotefcbbfc072d="drummer_kew_03"]Can anyone say threadjack?[/quotefcbbfc072d]

Yeah seriously, I thought flaming and threadjacking wasn't allowed Wolfeman? Yet you are pretty much the worst one in this thread. Talk about biased.

[quote7dab471b5b="JordanE"]
Funny how everyone who has called my avatar "stupid" is pretty obviously
liberal. While pretty much the olny other conservative on this forum (h3x) supported it. Funny isn't it hehehhehe?
[/quote7dab471b5b]
I am also a conservative, but while I think your avatar is clever, I still think it is kind of in bad taste on this forum.

[quotea54a4cbdb1="freedesktoppc"][quotea54a4cbdb1="JordanE"]
Funny how everyone who has called my avatar "stupid" is pretty obviously
liberal. While pretty much the olny other conservative on this forum (h3x) supported it. Funny isn't it hehehhehe?
[/quotea54a4cbdb1]
I am also a conservative, but while I think your avatar is clever, I still think it is kind of in bad taste on this forum.[/quotea54a4cbdb1]

While I respect your opinion (aswell as everyone eles in this thread) There are alot of other things on this forum that are quite a bit more controversial. My avatar other than being a true statment is ment to make people think and to educate and make people ackownledge just how many abortions actually take place.

[quotebf0f1ffc29="JordanE"][quotebf0f1ffc29="freedesktoppc"][quotebf0f1ffc29="JordanE"]
Funny how everyone who has called my avatar "stupid" is pretty obviously
liberal. While pretty much the olny other conservative on this forum (h3x) supported it. Funny isn't it hehehhehe?
[/quotebf0f1ffc29]
I am also a conservative, but while I think your avatar is clever, I still think it is kind of in bad taste on this forum.[/quotebf0f1ffc29]

While I respect your opinion (aswell as everyone eles in this thread) There are alot of other things on this forum that are quite a bit more controversial. My avatar other than being a true statment is ment to make people think and to educate and make people ackownledge just how many abortions actually take place.[/quotebf0f1ffc29]

It is a controversial and potentially offensive avatar, but no more potentially offensive than boobies bouncing around could be to someone. That's why we offer the option to block avatars.

Hehe you said boobies...

[quote53b0a39600="JordanE"]Funny how everyone who has called my avatar "stupid" is pretty obviously liberal. While pretty much the olny other conservative on this forum (h3x) supported it. Funny isn't it hehehhehe?[/quote53b0a39600]
A lot of the people here are morons, so comparing what happens here to the actual political stance of those against or supporting these issues is pretty foolish. This is especially with such a small sample size. What did you take, 2 or 3 people? lol

[quote53b0a39600="CollidgeGraduit"]... That's why we offer the option to block avatars.[/quote53b0a39600]
True. Blocked.

[quoted31f09b54a="JordanE"]
While I respect your opinion (aswell as everyone eles in this thread) There are alot of other things on this forum that are quite a bit more controversial. My avatar other than being a true statment is ment to make people think and to educate and make people ackownledge just how many abortions actually take place.[/quoted31f09b54a]

i respect your opinion as well and i didnt call your avatar stupid. i called it silly. the reason I called it silly is that you assume that democrats killed all these unwanted pregnancies.
I would be much more interested if you did some research about your "true" statistics. I would be interested to see what your research comes up with if you look at the morbidity and mortality of "home" abortions done by women before they were able to have a medical procedure done. see what the death rate and complication rate was then. compare that to your "deaths" that you call the loss of a 12 week old fetus. we won't get into semantics...
also look at what percentage of natural abortions occur during the time that medical abortions are done. who is to blame for those deaths? Is the higher being or fate the killer? shock

[quoteb8c0252241="CollidgeGraduit"][quoteb8c0252241="JordanE"][quoteb8c0252241="freedesktoppc"][quoteb8c0252241="JordanE"]
Funny how everyone who has called my avatar "stupid" is pretty obviously
liberal. While pretty much the olny other conservative on this forum (h3x) supported it. Funny isn't it hehehhehe?
[/quoteb8c0252241]
I am also a conservative, but while I think your avatar is clever, I still think it is kind of in bad taste on this forum.[/quoteb8c0252241]

While I respect your opinion (aswell as everyone eles in this thread) There are alot of other things on this forum that are quite a bit more controversial. My avatar other than being a true statment is ment to make people think and to educate and make people ackownledge just how many abortions actually take place.[/quoteb8c0252241]


It is a controversial and potentially offensive avatar, but no more potentially offensive than boobies bouncing around could be to someone. That's why we offer the option to block avatars.[/quoteb8c0252241]

True, I guess it is a fairly controversial subject and is probably offensive to democrats. But honestly I don't care to much if I offend them and they quite odviously don't care about offending me. Thats what makes the http//forum.freeipodguide.com/templates/subSilver/images/lang_english/icon_hide.gif[" alt=""/imgb8c0252241] so nice D

It is crazy how 2,000 dead soldiers that are the average age of 22 died. Men and Women that had lives, possibly families, children, those who paid their taxes are earned a living but had to go to war because of their economic state or their patriotic behavior... either way, that number does not count the tens of thousands injured by the war, those who no longer have legs and can not play catch with their sons in the park, or those who can no longer see or hear their loved ones...

all this compared to children who do not feel pain, have not seen their mother and couldnt care less, children who if they had survived, could possibly had suicidal parents or parents who do drugs....

It is true that there is no peace without war, but with the free country we have today, there may not be peace without violence.

You sign up for the military, you CHOOSE to serve your country. You KNOW that MAYBE one day we will get attacked and you will have to go to a country and fight, and possibly die.

My friend served in Iraq, and was shot with an AK-47 and died 3 times. He did not have his body armor on, because he said that the vehicles have NO armor, so everyone puts their body armor on the vehicles to protect themselves. Also, his 1st kill was a 12 year old boy who was shooting at them with an AK-47. I hate how on the news people are saying the US is killing innocent woman and children, when most of them are as bad as the men.

[quote4c247809d0="TryinToGetPaid"]You sign up for the military, you CHOOSE to serve your country. You KNOW that MAYBE one day we will get attacked and you will have to go to a country and fight, and possibly die.

My friend served in Iraq, and was shot with an AK-47 and died 3 times. He did not have his body armor on, because he said that the vehicles have NO armor, so everyone puts their body armor on the vehicles to protect themselves. Also, his 1st kill was a 12 year old boy who was shooting at them with an AK-47. I hate how on the news people are saying the US is killing innocent woman and children, when most of them are as bad as the men.[/quote4c247809d0]

Wait, I'm not understanding. Your friend was shot and killed three times?

And I also don't understand why they'd want to protect the vehicle and not themselves with the armor made for them?

not everyone who has signed up for the military or reserves knew what they were getting into. especially the reserves, who are not supposed to be used in this kind of war...anyway, sorry to hijack your thread here.

No, shot and continued to fire, until the enemy was killed off. Then promptly passed out and died, revived and during surgery he died twice more. And if you are riding in the back of a vehicle and it is shot at, your head is left unprotected, but if everyone takes off their body armor and places it around the vehicle you are protected all over. Plus, in the desert, it is hot

[quoteda40382e89="Vector"]It is crazy how 2,000 dead soldiers that are the average age of 22 died. Men and Women that had lives, possibly families, children, those who paid their taxes are earned a living but had to go to war because of their economic state or their patriotic behavior... either way, that number does not count the tens of thousands injured by the war, those who no longer have legs and can not play catch with their sons in the park, or those who can no longer see or hear their loved ones...

all this compared to children who do not feel pain, have not seen their mother and couldnt care less, children who if they had survived, could possibly had suicidal parents or parents who do drugs....

It is true that there is no peace without war, but with the free country we have today, there may not be peace without violence.[/quoteda40382e89]


I have personally spoke with servirail veterans of bolth Iraq and Afghanistan. I also volunteerd at a veterans hospital on regular bases. The fact is they pretty much all say the same thing when asked if they regret there discussion to join the military. The most common response is "I would never trade my time spent in the military for anything."

The truth is you almost never see our brave soldiers speack for them selves. Theres alot of politicians who try to "Speack on behalf of our troops" When in reallity they are trying to use the tragedy of a fallen soldier to push there own political agenda.

The reality of it is. These are grown mem and women who know what they are doing when they inlist. They don't need people to speack for them.

On the other hand babies can not speack for them selves and have know say when it comes to abortion. Babies most surtainly feel pain in cases of partial birth abortion. If don't know what partial birth abortion is I suggest you do some research. It is usually preformed by using decapitation! or removal of the babies arms and legs to endorse bleeding eventually cousing the babie to bleed to death! That is not a fabricated partial truth. That is the bloody reality of partial birth abortions.

Yes abortion is wrong-- but if its illegal, there will still be "back alley abortionists" who may kill the baby, and the mother as well. So why not make it legal, and if someone wants an abortion, they will have one no matter what, so why not make it safe for the mother?

I'm a conservative (voted for Bush in the 2004 elections) and used to support the war but can only see it as a mess we need to clean-up and withdrawing troops is not the answer.

Just goes to show you that there are conservative pot smokers and not every responsible pot smoker is a liberal hippy who wants to legalize gay marriage, abortion, prostitution, linient border control and pro-illegal immigration. http//forum.freeipodguide.com/smilies_mod/upload/bfbb541ccd69e284a4472005fb58a3d7.gif[" alt=""/img33bfaae85d]

The same could be said for drugs.

If the things put in them are regulated, it will be safer, but there can still be negative side affects.

What would be negative about the legalization of weed?

Is it your goal to look more like a moron with every post you make?

Marijuana needs to be regulated, otherwise it poses a threat to children and teenagers.

I would regulate Marijuana at age 21, require I.D. for persons that appear 30 years old or younger, and issue a $10,000 fine AND 5 years unconditional imprisonment for anyone who distributes marijuana to a minor.

I would also require any minors caught in possession of marijuana to attend drug counseling and 1 year probation (or until age 21) on first offense, and drug inpatient and 2 year probation (or until age 21) on concurrent offenses.

Adults (age 21) or over may cultivate no more than 6 plants. Medical marijuana would be distributed to patients from a state-run medical marijuana farm, and allow the patient to cultivate no more than 12 plants.

Any licensed marijuana dispensary must pay an annual fee to run dispensary and the marijauna should be taxed with a stamp.

Schools should continue to do it's job at preventing drug use (which includes alcohol, tobacco, and marijuana).

That's how I would run things. Think of all the income the nation could make by doing this and the % of marijuana use by minors would drop. There would be very few dealers selling their stuff as it's readily available to any person 21 years of age or older, which means minors wouldn't be able to get the stuff from a dealer and I'm sure not many adults would dare take a chance of distributing it to a minor in fear of imprisonment and a huge fine.

Some people might say 5 years in jail would cost the nation (or state) a lot of money. But think of the legal costs of every prosecution for marijuana charges. That number would be cut drastically, the prisoners would be cleaned up for only dangerous criminals and drug dealers and with taxation and licensing, the nation could turn in billions of dollars in revenue.

But that's just me. shrug

I'm all for the legalization of it, but to stand up and say what could possibly be negative about legalizing it is a pretty bold statement.

[quote35c45403d4="jy3"][quote35c45403d4="JordanE"]
While I respect your opinion (aswell as everyone eles in this thread) There are alot of other things on this forum that are quite a bit more controversial. My avatar other than being a true statment is ment to make people think and to educate and make people ackownledge just how many abortions actually take place.[/quote35c45403d4]

i respect your opinion as well and i didnt call your avatar stupid. i called it silly. the reason I called it silly is that you assume that democrats killed all these unwanted pregnancies.
I would be much more interested if you did some research about your "true" statistics. I would be interested to see what your research comes up with if you look at the morbidity and mortality of "home" abortions done by women before they were able to have a medical procedure done. see what the death rate and complication rate was then. compare that to your "deaths" that you call the loss of a 12 week old fetus. we won't get into semantics...
also look at what percentage of natural abortions occur during the time that medical abortions are done. who is to blame for those deaths? Is the higher being or fate the killer? shock[/quote35c45403d4]

First off I didn't make this avatar. Secondly I don't know if you know much about Roe Vs. Wade or have even heard of it. But it is the supreme court case that ruled in favor of the legalization of abortion. At the time of Roe Vs. Wade the supreme court was heavily influenced by liberalism. What this than did was take what should have been a states right issue
and force the pro-abortion decision down the throats of everyone else,
whether you agreed with the decision or not. It would be the equivalent of
a pro-lifer making abortion illegal in all circumstances and taking this
to the federal level, thereby enforcing that law on all states,
irregardless of each states particular view on abortion. How would you
pro-choicers reading this feel about that?

Over turning Roe Vs. Wade would not stop all abortion it would allow each state to make up there own mind about abortion.

Allowing abortion to be a state issue is small government conservatism at its finest. Where as Roe Vs. Wade is liberalism (actually borderlines on communism) at its finest.

Witch of the two parties prides its self on liberalism? Not Republicans! Though I recognize it is a bit of a strech. It isn't totally unrational to say that the blood of abortion is on the democrats hands.

As far as back ally "coat hanger" (aka illegal abortions) abortions go. Robbing a bank can be dangerous. Sometimes the robbers get killed should we legalize bank robbery to make it safer for the criminals? As far as i'm concerned if you are accidentally killed while commiting a crime (ironically killing anther human being in this case) your not going to get very much sympathy from me. That is the risk you are taking by commiting the crime. Much like unwanted pregnancy is a risk you are taking by having sex!

If the government regulated it and taxed it-- it would save this country a lot of money.

In 2002, 45.7 percent of all drug arrests, were marijuana related. State and local justice costs for marijuana arrests are now estimated to be $7.6 billion (approximately $10,400 per arrest) I do not see the need to waste so much money on a petty drug which offers less harm to the person consuming it than alcohol does.

Does anyone know if there has been a study that compares people driving while drunk, to people that drive while high?

Back onto abortion-- If you were a girl, and were raped. And you did not want to have the baby, and abortions were illegal you would HAVE to go to an illegal abortionist, and run the risk of dying as well.

[quote6515b9aacb="TryinToGetPaid"]Yes abortion is wrong-- but if its illegal, there will still be "back alley abortionists" who may kill the baby, and the mother as well. So why not make it legal, and if someone wants an abortion, they will have one no matter what, so why not make it safe for the mother?[/quote6515b9aacb]

This particular approach was adopted quite a few years ago back home in Edinburgh, but not with abortion clinics.

There was rampant prostitution going on, women were being raped or attacked or murdered, under-age girls were being pimped etc, so what happened was that the council knew that this would go on whether it was legalised or not, so they set up what are essentially brothels (massage parlours) all over the city where the women would be safe, indoors, with other women, secirty systems etc and the number of attacks, assaults, under-age prostitutes etc has gone down.

Same thing with condoms and under-age sex. Our schools, doctors, clinics, hospitals etc give out condoms for free because they know that kids will have sex with or without a condom, so why not just give them out for free and have them be safe or reduce the risk of STD's being transmitted.

Anyway, back on topic. I think the avatar is dumb. What do the war in Iraq and abortions have to do with democrats and Hitler? You'd be as well just saying

[quote6515b9aacb]Death toll in Paradise, California 2
Number of bottles of Hi-C Blast (Fruit Pow) sold each year in Maine 876
Lightbulbs have killed more people than sharks![/quote6515b9aacb]

I'm not a democrat, nor am I a republican, but I am liberal and I do believe in pro-choice.

Babies aren't people anyway.

[quotea34a098985="justinag06"]I'm all for the legalization of it, but to stand up and say what could possibly be negative about legalizing it is a pretty bold statement.[/quotea34a098985]

I can only think of one negative about "legalizing" it, rampant use amongst children and teenagers, which is a serious issue.

Regulation by means of taxation and limited cultivation with VERY STRICT, UNCONDITIONAL punishment for distributing to minors, mandated drug counseling for minors, and increased efforts to curb it's use amongst minors in school is the right way to go.

This country is losing billions of dollars arresting innocent marijuana users and personal cultivatiors. Prohibition did not work for Alcohol, and it doesn't work for Marijuana. We need a "sane" policy of regulation.

[quote0a8f3897f1="JordanE"]Allowing abortion to be a state issue is small government conservatism at its finest. Where as Roe Vs. Wade is liberalism (actually borderlines on communism) at its finest.[/quote0a8f3897f1]

Woah horsey.

Please explain to me how Roe vs. Wade is "Liberalism, bordering on communism".

I really wouldn't take his posts very seriously...

[quotea975e6045e="hehehhehe"]I really wouldn't take his posts very seriously...[/quotea975e6045e]

Are you serious? ?

I just split up with my wife because I threw my cat out the window trying to disprove one of his points. (

I need a shovel.

Woot for the biggest thread jack I have ever seen.

[quotebdf514d952="TheySayJump"]Anyway, back on topic. I think the avatar is dumb. What do the war in Iraq and abortions have to do with democrats and Hitler? You'd be as well just saying

Death toll in Paradise, California 2
Number of bottles of Hi-C Blast (Fruit Pow) sold each year in Maine 876
Lightbulbs have killed more people than sharks!

I'm not a democrat, nor am I a republican, but I am liberal and I do believe in pro-choice.

Babies aren't people anyway.[/quotebdf514d952]

You not being a Democrat nor a Republican probably has a significant reflection on why you don't understand my avatar. A common anti war democrat tatic (witch has been used during almost every war) is to say some like the following "We have people dieing everyday in (incert country(s) name here) we need to fix the problems in our own country before we can liberate others." As my avatar bluntly puts it. We have a huge problem with abortion. Far more human beings are dieing by the hand of abortion doctors than they are in iraq. As as the hitler remark gose, people generally associate hitler with mass murder.


Now for your "Babies aren't people anyway" statment you are completly wrong. I would have thought that you would atleast say "Fetuses arin't people" witch you would still be wrong. But you would have put up a good fight.

How come if a pregnant woman is murderd it is counted as a double homicide. But the definition of homicide is "To kill a [bbdf514d952]human being[/bbdf514d952] with premeditated malice." -How can it be a homicide if it isn't a human being?

[quote2aac4555b5="theysayjump"][quote2aac4555b5="hehehhehe"]I really wouldn't take his posts very seriously...[/quote2aac4555b5]

Are you serious? ?

I just split up with my wife because I threw my cat out the window trying to disprove one of his points. (

I need a shovel.[/quote2aac4555b5]
lol That's exactly why I wanted you to stop pursuing this! He's going to prove us all wrong by intelligently linking the Iraq war to abortion to Karl Marx and then what are we gonna do?

[quote5a8dc638e2="theysayjump"][quote5a8dc638e2="JordanE"]Allowing abortion to be a state issue is small government conservatism at its finest. Where as Roe Vs. Wade is liberalism (actually borderlines on communism) at its finest.[/quote5a8dc638e2]

Woah horsey.

Please explain to me how Roe vs. Wade is "Liberalism, bordering on communism".[/quote5a8dc638e2]

[quote5a8dc638e2="definition of communism"]A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.[/quote5a8dc638e2]

The definition of communism only states that all "goods" are equally shared by the people. What it fails to state is that communist dictators run nearly every aspect of day to day life for there civilians. Instead of dividing the power to individual sections and leaderships. It socially controlled by one regime. Now dosen't the supreme court passing a federal law stating that abortions have to be provided to atleast adults. Regardless of the fact that indovisual states have very diffrent opinions on abortion. Sound somewhat like communism. If not its deffinitally liberalism at its most extreme.

[quote803fce37b7="hehehhehe"]I really wouldn't take his posts very seriously...[/quote803fce37b7]

Quite honestly I haven't seen you ever make a post worth taking very seriously...

Looks like the flame is igniting... I'll get the steaks...

[quotead5c835254="h3x"][quotead5c835254="justinag06"]I'm all for the legalization of it, but to stand up and say what could possibly be negative about legalizing it is a pretty bold statement.[/quotead5c835254]

I can only think of one negative about "legalizing" it, rampant use amongst children and teenagers, which is a serious issue.

Regulation by means of taxation and limited cultivation with VERY STRICT, UNCONDITIONAL punishment for distributing to minors, mandated drug counseling for minors, and increased efforts to curb it's use amongst minors in school is the right way to go.

This country is losing billions of dollars arresting innocent marijuana users and personal cultivatiors. Prohibition did not work for Alcohol, and it doesn't work for Marijuana. We need a "sane" policy of regulation.[/quotead5c835254]

don't forget more people being intoxicated on the road. It affects some people differently than others and may impair their ability to drive or work.

I will go ahead and already agree with you that it is safer to drive a car high than drunk, but still to innocent people who have no desire to smoke pot. They may die in an accident related to someone else using it.

and yeah if you have tons of kids and teens doing it their performance on average would drop considerably. It might make our entire nation a lot more lazy.


but again i'm all for it's legalization. The pros outweigh the cons, and it's hypocritical for it to be a banned substance

[quotea29ee535a5="h3x"]Looks like the flame is igniting... I'll get the steaks...[/quotea29ee535a5]

The flames started along time ago. But where bolth ignored and contributed by moderators and admins.

I wander what would have happend if I where flaming a pro choicer about a pro choice avatar roll

[quotef6c1ed098f="justinag06"][quotef6c1ed098f="h3x"][quotef6c1ed098f="justinag06"]I'm all for the legalization of it, but to stand up and say what could possibly be negative about legalizing it is a pretty bold statement.[/quotef6c1ed098f]

I can only think of one negative about "legalizing" it, rampant use amongst children and teenagers, which is a serious issue.

Regulation by means of taxation and limited cultivation with VERY STRICT, UNCONDITIONAL punishment for distributing to minors, mandated drug counseling for minors, and increased efforts to curb it's use amongst minors in school is the right way to go.

This country is losing billions of dollars arresting innocent marijuana users and personal cultivatiors. Prohibition did not work for Alcohol, and it doesn't work for Marijuana. We need a "sane" policy of regulation.[/quotef6c1ed098f]

don't forget more people being intoxicated on the road. It affects some people differently than others and may impair their ability to drive or work.

I will go ahead and already agree with you that it is safer to drive a car high than drunk, but still to innocent people who have no desire to smoke pot. They may die in an accident related to someone else using it.

and yeah if you have tons of kids and teens doing it their performance on average would drop considerably. It might make our entire nation a lot more lazy.


but again i'm all for it's legalization. The pros outweigh the cons, and it's hypocritical for it to be a banned substance[/quotef6c1ed098f]

I agree. However, there are numerous 'legal' substances other than alcohol that can severly impair your driving. One of these substances is Over The Counter allergy medication, and people do get arrested for that all the time. Why don't we make that illegal as well? We can't.

I think we're on the same page

http//forum.freeipodguide.com/smilies_mod/upload/9621ac36e19b97e7ffefc30481fce437.gif[" alt=""/img63b06d2683]

i love how akwardly remote from the first post these become

[quote4b90b8b4fd="syriandoode"]i love how akwardly remote from the first post these become[/quote4b90b8b4fd]

You can thank mostly hehehhehe, theysayjump, and wolfeman for that.

He'll grow up and learn guys. At least I hope so.

[quote48224743e9="JordanE"]Thats pretty close minded of you to say. [/quote48224743e9]

[quote48224743e9="JordanE"]Now for your "Babies aren't people anyway" statment you are completly wrong. I would have thought that you would atleast say "Fetuses arin't people" witch you would still be wrong. But you would have put up a good fight. [/quote48224743e9]

i lol'd.

[quote5630bb1de7="Brok3n_Sword"][quote5630bb1de7="JordanE"]Thats pretty close minded of you to say. [/quote5630bb1de7]

[quote5630bb1de7="JordanE"]Now for your "Babies aren't people anyway" statment you are completly wrong. I would have thought that you would atleast say "Fetuses arin't people" witch you would still be wrong. But you would have put up a good fight. [/quote5630bb1de7]

i lol'd.[/quote5630bb1de7]

Theres a pretty substantial difference between being close minded and actual fact. Something that is being ignored.


[quote5630bb1de7="Brok3n_Sword"]
He'll grow up and learn guys. At least I hope so.
[/quote5630bb1de7]

Learn what exactly?

[b5630bb1de7]babies airn't human -TSJ[/b5630bb1de7]

The law of biogenesis states that fetuses are human, it basically says that a human and a human can only make a human, and a horse and a horse can only make a horse, now all scientists have accepted this as fact, so if the fetus is human, then by the definition of murder which is to kill (a human being) with premeditated malice, You are committing murder, now you may say that it isn't malice because fetuses aren't tortured, but what would you call it when a fetus has its arms and legs ripped off and is left to bleed to death, or when the sac is filled with salt that is meant to dissolve the skin of the baby?

[b5630bb1de7]they don't feel pain -Vector[/b5630bb1de7]

If the ability to feel pain is what makes you human, can someone slit another's throat if they are under anesthesia?

[b5630bb1de7]That nearly everyone in this thread can't stand anyone whith a diffrent political view than themselves[/b5630bb1de7]

Check!

[b5630bb1de7]That TSJ and Wolfeman are pretty hipacritical for warning/banning anyone for thread crapping or flaming[/b5630bb1de7]

Check!


Honestly its you guys that need to grow up. I didn't start this thread with the intention of it being a huge abortion debate. But you guys turned it into that. I'm more than happy to continue this little debate but you guys are being quite a bit less than rational.

http//forum.freeipodguide.com/smilies_mod/upload/6e756f2263c30f41be645401d32a03eb.gif[" alt=""/imgf70590eb19]

http//media.urbandictionary.com/image/large/yarly-41271.jpg[" alt=""/img397a357899]

I was trying to look at this whole convo without putting my own feelings in it, and I'd say JordanE was teh best debator here, for being 16 he pretty much smoked everyone here...

Maybe i'm biased to his opinion because most of it is the same as mine shrug

And I don't think people should tell him to grow up or shit, he's just defending what he feels, he didn't make a thread that said "Hey everyone, read my aviator and i'm going to debate you with it" someone else brought it up and started going after him, he was just standing up for himself...

+Karma JordanE

From a fellow conservative, I must say you did a great job at keeping your cool in this "abortion debate thread", and your points were valid and straight to the point.

If you still need $20, I can help you out. I know you're trustworthy.

[quote8032ed9874="JordanE"][quote8032ed9874="jy3"][quote8032ed9874="JordanE"]
While I respect your opinion (aswell as everyone eles in this thread) There are alot of other things on this forum that are quite a bit more controversial. My avatar other than being a true statment is ment to make people think and to educate and make people ackownledge just how many abortions actually take place.[/quote8032ed9874]

i respect your opinion as well and i didnt call your avatar stupid. i called it silly. the reason I called it silly is that you assume that democrats killed all these unwanted pregnancies.
I would be much more interested if you did some research about your "true" statistics. I would be interested to see what your research comes up with if you look at the morbidity and mortality of "home" abortions done by women before they were able to have a medical procedure done. see what the death rate and complication rate was then. compare that to your "deaths" that you call the loss of a 12 week old fetus. we won't get into semantics...
also look at what percentage of natural abortions occur during the time that medical abortions are done. who is to blame for those deaths? Is the higher being or fate the killer? shock[/quote8032ed9874]

First off I didn't make this avatar. Secondly I don't know if you know much about Roe Vs. Wade or have even heard of it. But it is the supreme court case that ruled in favor of the legalization of abortion. At the time of Roe Vs. Wade the supreme court was heavily influenced by liberalism. What this than did was take what should have been a states right issue
and force the pro-abortion decision down the throats of everyone else,
whether you agreed with the decision or not. It would be the equivalent of
a pro-lifer making abortion illegal in all circumstances and taking this
to the federal level, thereby enforcing that law on all states,
irregardless of each states particular view on abortion. How would you
pro-choicers reading this feel about that?

Over turning Roe Vs. Wade would not stop all abortion it would allow each state to make up there own mind about abortion.

Allowing abortion to be a state issue is small government conservatism at its finest. Where as Roe Vs. Wade is liberalism (actually borderlines on communism) at its finest.

Witch of the two parties prides its self on liberalism? Not Republicans! Though I recognize it is a bit of a strech. It isn't totally unrational to say that the blood of abortion is on the democrats hands.

As far as back ally "coat hanger" (aka illegal abortions) abortions go. Robbing a bank can be dangerous. Sometimes the robbers get killed should we legalize bank robbery to make it safer for the criminals? As far as i'm concerned if you are accidentally killed while commiting a crime (ironically killing anther human being in this case) your not going to get very much sympathy from me. That is the risk you are taking by commiting the crime. Much like unwanted pregnancy is a risk you are taking by having sex![/quote8032ed9874]

your rampant lack of knowledge combined with your belief that what you think you know is true knowedge is quite dangerous.
there is a huge difference between "coat hanger" abortions, which are by far the rarest of the types of self-induced abortions, and robbery. your blind attempts at rationalization thru failed and flawed analogies is staggering.

you are mistaken about the inappropriateness of the federal government making the decision about roe vs wade a federal issue. the government has the final regulatory power on human health issues. denying women appropriate levels of healthcare, denying women appropriate information to make educated healthcare decisions, denying women the ability to make decisions concerning their own wellbeing and those of their family, failing to afford women the opportunity to make healthcare decisions with coercion or threats, warping scientific evidence to cater to religious beliefs is contrary to multiple international treaties and statements by our own government (bipartisan) officials - human health care is a basic human right, as is the access to it. this relates to all heath for all humans.
http//www.nhchc.org/humanright.html
http//www.nhchc.org/Advocacy/RighttoHealthinAmerica.pdf
http//www.pdhre.org/rights/health.html#obligations <- read the links
http//www.ciesin.org/datasets/unced/unced.html
http//www.unhchr.ch/html/menu5/popdev94.htm
http//www.un.org/popin/icpd/conference/offeng/poa.html
"We commit ourselves to promoting and attaining the goals of universal and equitable access to ... the highest attainable standard of physical and mental health, and the access of all to primary health care, making particular efforts to rectify inequalities relating to social conditions and without distinction as to race, national origin, gender, age or disability...."
--Copenhagen Declaration, Commitment 6

one last final comment, your description of how abortions take place is completely false. stop reading the bullshit that you are fed by pro-life people who have no scientific basis in their claims. if you feel so strongly about an issue then educate yourself about the opposite viewpoint. validate your arguments and claims. read a gynecological journal describing abortion techniques.

i sstrongly suggest that you read the article I linked from the journal of adolescent health
http//www.adolescenthealth.org/PositionPaper_Abstinence_only_edu_policies_and_programs.pdf

an' another thing...
just because you state something is a fact, does not make it a fact. the law of biogenesis relates to genetic components. yes scientists would agree with that, but not all scientists would agree that this definition extends to the abortion issue. again, your logic is present, but you take leap and bounds that are flawed.

lastly, you know nothing about the procedures done during abortions and your claims of ripping arms and legs off is unfounded.
off to work

[quotee7f9c1283b="hehehhehe"]I really wouldn't take his posts very seriously...[/quotee7f9c1283b]

You start feeling this way about more than one poster after you read the ignorant and unrealistic posts they make.

[quotea784416b55="Jrok138"]Woot for the biggest thread jack I have ever seen.[/quotea784416b55]

Another woot for continuing to argue about topics that don't have a definate answer.

[quote820cbc989f="Wolfeman"]I've been waiting for a long time to say something. I can't stand religion forcing its views onto people that don't want it or need it...[/quote820cbc989f]
Right there with you, wolfe.

[quote9711b3b1b8="JordanE"]
[b9711b3b1b8]That TSJ and Wolfeman are pretty hipacritical for warning/banning anyone for thread crapping or flaming[/b9711b3b1b8]

Check!
[/quote9711b3b1b8]

http//forum.freeipodguide.com/smilies_mod/upload/3281ce41e84b7e72b1767fc14136bd89.gif[" alt=""/img9711b3b1b8]

You've got to admit, he got you there.

wink

It's true we thread crapped so I apologize for that but I for one never got into an abortion debate, nor do I feel I can't stand his political views (I even said "these issues (abortion and Iraq war) aren't clear cut republican/democratic issues."). Do you see me wasting time flaming h3x or any other conservatives? I don’t think so. I myself would take McCain over Hillary any day. Like I said, his avatar is too simplistic, that's all.

For example

There are Republicans that are not in full support of the war, just like there are democrats for the war, so the premise that the Iraq war is a democrat vs. republican issue is simplistic. If you understand politics, you'd understand that they'd fucking sway in whatever way is more advantageous for them.

Communism (not in avatar but was stated)? That can be argued for the other side as well if no abortions were allowed. It would even be a stronger argument in that case, since the government would be telling women what to do against their will, whereas right now they are free to choose. This is an obvious use of a sword that cuts both ways that you’ve decided to use solely to support your views.

People that are fairly educated know that Stalin is a worse killer than Hitler. He killed about 40 million people.

If life is so important, why aren't Iraqi civilian deaths counted in that figure in your avatar? Are their lives not worth it? There are tens of thousands that have died, including babies and children.

If after considering some of these things, you still think you have an avatar with smart, pertinent info, so be it. And take this as advice and not as an insult, but you really need to learn to spell, it's atrocious and it hurts any credibility you hope to have.

[quoteb61592f449="theysayjump"][quoteb61592f449="hehehhehe"]I really wouldn't take his posts very seriously...[/quoteb61592f449]

Are you serious? ?

I just split up with my wife because I threw my cat out the window trying to disprove one of his points. (

I need a shovel.[/quoteb61592f449]

Hear, hear!

You gotta respect a guy who sticks with his convictions...

[quote54e1b208f2="JordanE"]Since you all seem to think i'm Catholic. Lets make one thing clear. I'm NOT! I am a Christian. My political views have little to do with my religious views.[/quote54e1b208f2]
Not to further thread crap, but I have to say that it's pretty rare when someone non-religious is pro-life. I have met a few non-religious people that are pro-life before and each time, I've had to apologize for making the religious=pro-life assumption. You have to admit that it's not all that common.

As for your avatar, I don't think it's stupid or silly. I do think that just as much as people made the religion/pro-life assumption, your avatar makes the assumption that only Democrats have abortions. Republicans and non-party affiliated people have lots of abortions as well. In fact, there's a lot of those that rant against abortion that have either had or been party to abortions, mostly in political coverups and other activities that are hypocritical to their public persona.

The other assumption that gets made is that those who are pro-choice are pro-abortion, which actually is quite rare in of itself.

That's all I wanted to say.

Is this what you guys really do during your free time.

It's summer guys go have some f'n fun. Leave the debating up for when your in school or drunk with friends.

You guys are seriously debating abortion on a FIG forum during the month of July. roll

Yeah, seriously.

Besides, everyone knows abortions peak after the holidays...

Summer? You know some people work all year round, so there is no summer, and if you work on the computer like I know some of us do. Then posting on this board is a welcome vacation from angry customers

[quote99dd16033a="TryinToGetPaid"]Summer? You know some people work all year round, so there is no summer, and if you work on the computer like I know some of us do. Then posting on this board is a welcome vacation from angry customers[/quote99dd16033a]

Yes I fall into that category of working year round and it's depressing to see what some of you all do with your free time.

I know not all of you do work year round and are still posting in this thread.

I work on the computer all day long and thank god I don't have to deal with angry customers. Hell I've been getting my work done on time so I don't even have angry tech leads or project managers. Even if I were to find sometime to post I don't think I could come in here with my 30 min a day of freetime and start arguing about abortion.

ANYwyas I've worked my ass off and don't need to argue over senesless crap because I have a flight to Las Vegas. Y'all have fun with this thread

[quote52451023ad="good2speed"]You guys are seriously debating abortion on a FIG forum during the month of July. roll[/quote52451023ad]
Hey, it's year round here, regardless how much nicer it is outside that it is at my cubical.

haha i probably started this whole thing!

big up to jordan on defending his shit. [b19440d581c] I hate abortions[/b19440d581c] but never should a woman not have the right to choose for herself. just my opinion lets not argue that one

[quote2e9a6ee661="JordanE"][b2e9a6ee661]babies airn't human -TSJ[/b2e9a6ee661][/quote2e9a6ee661]

First off, I said "Babies aren't people", not "Babies aren't human". Generally when you talk of people, it's alive, walking, talking, breathing, grown human beings, not fetuses inside a womb.

Second of all, my statement was facetious.

[quote2e9a6ee661="JordanE"][b2e9a6ee661]That TSJ and Wolfeman are pretty hipacritical for warning/banning anyone for thread crapping or flaming[/b2e9a6ee661]

Check![/quote2e9a6ee661]

Show me where someone flamed you.

Yes, you're thread was jacked, but to include me in that isn't fair. My first post in this thread was exactly 4 hours and 9 minutes after you posted that you no longer needed the money. Once your purpose for the thread has been reached, it's open to anyone to comment on what they want.

Anyway, if Roe vs Wade was Communism then everyone would be told what decision they had to make by the people in charge. As hehehhehe said, people are given a choice with Roe vs Wade. What you want to do, is adopt Communism and have every woman be told that they can't have abortions and for it to be made illegal.

[quote2e9a6ee661="JordanE"][quote2e9a6ee661="syriandoode"]i love how akwardly remote from the first post these become[/quote2e9a6ee661]

You can thank mostly hehehhehe, theysayjump, and wolfeman for that.[/quote2e9a6ee661]

I'm still unsure why you're singling me out here. I've made three posts before this one, towards the very end of the first page.

[quote3cd0c1b3b5="jy3"]
your rampant lack of knowledge combined with your belief that what you think you know is true knowedge is quite dangerous.
there is a huge difference between "coat hanger" abortions, which are by far the rarest of the types of self-induced abortions, and robbery. your blind attempts at rationalization thru failed and flawed analogies is staggering.

you are mistaken about the inappropriateness of the federal government making the decision about roe vs wade a federal issue. the government has the final regulatory power on human health issues. denying women appropriate levels of healthcare, denying women appropriate information to make educated healthcare decisions, denying women the ability to make decisions concerning their own wellbeing and those of their family, failing to afford women the opportunity to make healthcare decisions with coercion or threats, warping scientific evidence to cater to religious beliefs is contrary to multiple international treaties and statements by our own government (bipartisan) officials - human health care is a basic human right, as is the access to it. this relates to all heath for all humans.
http//www.nhchc.org/humanright.html
http//www.nhchc.org/Advocacy/RighttoHealthinAmerica.pdf
http//www.pdhre.org/rights/health.html#obligations <- read the links
http//www.ciesin.org/datasets/unced/unced.html
http//www.unhchr.ch/html/menu5/popdev94.htm
http//www.un.org/popin/icpd/conference/offeng/poa.html
"We commit ourselves to promoting and attaining the goals of universal and equitable access to ... the highest attainable standard of physical and mental health, and the access of all to primary health care, making particular efforts to rectify inequalities relating to social conditions and without distinction as to race, national origin, gender, age or disability...."
--Copenhagen Declaration, Commitment 6

one last final comment, your description of how abortions take place is completely false. stop reading the bullshit that you are fed by pro-life people who have no scientific basis in their claims. if you feel so strongly about an issue then educate yourself about the opposite viewpoint. validate your arguments and claims. read a gynecological journal describing abortion techniques.

i sstrongly suggest that you read the article I linked from the journal of adolescent health
http//www.adolescenthealth.org/PositionPaper_Abstinence_only_edu_policies_and_programs.pdf[/quote3cd0c1b3b5]

First off this is an abortion debate so quit dragging health care issues into this. Secondly coat hanger abortions where a very common way of having illegal abortions. Other common ways where taking black market abortion pills that where extremely dangerous for the mother, and self inflicted miscarriages.

Thirdly my description of [b3cd0c1b3b5]partial birth abortions[/b3cd0c1b3b5] was a very accurate one. Not all abortions are partial birth abortions. Most are farily humane. However it is still ending an innocent life. Since you seem to have a misconception of the truth about partial birth abortion these pictures below are the bloody reality of it. I think alot of people will agree with me that at the very least partial birth abortions need to be illegal. It is legal murder!.


Oh and also once again I did not make my avatar if I had made it I would have said liberalism kills more than hitler. I know fullwell that there are pretty liberal republicans and some pretty conservative democrats. Abortion is liberalism.

[b3cd0c1b3b5]lilililililililililililililililililililililililiWARNING!lilililililililililililililililililililililililili[/b3cd0c1b3b5]
[b3cd0c1b3b5]These are very graphic pictures displaying the brutality of partial birth abortion.[/b3cd0c1b3b5]

http//www.greaterthings.com/JeanKellySharp/Abortion/images/partial_birth.gif

http//www.abortiontv.com/images/FetusHeadonSide.JPG

http//www.abortiontv.com/images/FetusCoin.JPG

Mods & Admins. If you feel that the links to those images shouldn't have been posted than please remove them. I personally believe that if someone is going to support abortion than they also should have a good understanding of its most bloody side. However if I understand if you don't feel its appropriate.

How many times have I seen bloody pictures of an unborn baby, one million. It is just like seeing soldiers who are executed, its so common it does not have the WOW factor like it used to, and yes this is a sad society which we live in

"Secondly coat hanger abortions where a very common way of having illegal abortions. Other common ways where taking black market abortion pills that where extremely dangerous for the mother, and self inflicted miscarriages. "

So like I said, why not make it legal where mothers who are going to have an abortion, whether it be because of rape, or just an unwanted pregnancy, where the equipment is clean and it is safe for the mother. I agree that abortion is wrong, but it is someones choice to have it, so why not make it safe?

[quotebb74946036="JordanE"][quotebb74946036="jy3"]
your rampant lack of knowledge combined with your belief that what you think you know is true knowedge is quite dangerous.
there is a huge difference between "coat hanger" abortions, which are by far the rarest of the types of self-induced abortions, and robbery. your blind attempts at rationalization thru failed and flawed analogies is staggering.

you are mistaken about the inappropriateness of the federal government making the decision about roe vs wade a federal issue. the government has the final regulatory power on human health issues. denying women appropriate levels of healthcare, denying women appropriate information to make educated healthcare decisions, denying women the ability to make decisions concerning their own wellbeing and those of their family, failing to afford women the opportunity to make healthcare decisions with coercion or threats, warping scientific evidence to cater to religious beliefs is contrary to multiple international treaties and statements by our own government (bipartisan) officials - human health care is a basic human right, as is the access to it. this relates to all heath for all humans.
http//www.nhchc.org/humanright.html
http//www.nhchc.org/Advocacy/RighttoHealthinAmerica.pdf
http//www.pdhre.org/rights/health.html#obligations <- read the links
http//www.ciesin.org/datasets/unced/unced.html
http//www.unhchr.ch/html/menu5/popdev94.htm
http//www.un.org/popin/icpd/conference/offeng/poa.html
"We commit ourselves to promoting and attaining the goals of universal and equitable access to ... the highest attainable standard of physical and mental health, and the access of all to primary health care, making particular efforts to rectify inequalities relating to social conditions and without distinction as to race, national origin, gender, age or disability...."
--Copenhagen Declaration, Commitment 6

one last final comment, your description of how abortions take place is completely false. stop reading the bullshit that you are fed by pro-life people who have no scientific basis in their claims. if you feel so strongly about an issue then educate yourself about the opposite viewpoint. validate your arguments and claims. read a gynecological journal describing abortion techniques.

i sstrongly suggest that you read the article I linked from the journal of adolescent health
http//www.adolescenthealth.org/PositionPaper_Abstinence_only_edu_policies_and_programs.pdf[/quotebb74946036]

First off this is an abortion debate so quit dragging health care issues into this. Secondly coat hanger abortions where a very common way of having illegal abortions. Other common ways where taking black market abortion pills that where extremely dangerous for the mother, and self inflicted miscarriages.

Thirdly my description of [bbb74946036]partial birth abortions[/bbb74946036] was a very accurate one. Not all abortions are partial birth abortions. Most are farily humane. However it is still ending an innocent life. Since you seem to have a misconception of the truth about partial birth abortion these pictures below are the bloody reality of it. I think alot of people will agree with me that at the very least partial birth abortions need to be illegal. It is legal murder!.


Oh and also once again I did not make my avatar if I had made it I would have said liberalism kills more than hitler. I know fullwell that there are pretty liberal republicans and some pretty conservative democrats. Abortion is liberalism.

[bbb74946036]lilililililililililililililililililililililililiWARNING!lilililililililililililililililililililililililili[/bbb74946036]
[bbb74946036]These are very graphic pictures displaying the brutality of partial birth abortion.[/bbb74946036]

http//www.greaterthings.com/JeanKellySharp/Abortion/images/partial_birth.gif

http//www.abortiontv.com/images/FetusHeadonSide.JPG

http//www.abortiontv.com/images/FetusCoin.JPG

Mods & Admins. If you feel that the links to those images shouldn't have been posted than please remove them. I personally believe that if someone is going to support abortion than they also should have a good understanding of its most bloody side. However if I understand if you don't feel its appropriate.[/quotebb74946036]

You realize you're arguing medicine and medical issues with a medical doctor, right?

[quote5a7d9ecde0="hehehhehe"]
Communism (not in avatar but was stated)? That can be argued for the other side as well if no abortions were allowed. It would even be a stronger argument in that case, since the government would be telling women what to do against their will, whereas right now they are free to choose. This is an obvious use of a sword that cuts both ways that you’ve decided to use solely to support your views.[/quote5a7d9ecde0]

Abortion wasn't legal just like stealing isn't legal. Know one had a right to abortion in America. It wouldn't be communistic to keep something illegal that wasn't ever legal. It also woudn't be communistic to allow each state to make there own abortion laws. It is however communistic to force each state to to abide by brand new abortion laws regardless of each states own opinion.


[quote5a7d9ecde0="hehehhehe"]
If life is so important, why aren't Iraqi civilian deaths counted in that figure in your avatar? Are their lives not worth it? There are tens of thousands that have died, including babies and children.
[/quote5a7d9ecde0]

This is true. But there is a big diffrence between war and day to day life. Not to mention that a significant portion of Iraqi civilians killed in this war have been killed by there own people. Though tragic it is. This is also a time of war.

[quote95c6ee4f7d="doylnea"]
You realize you're arguing medicine and medical issues with a medical doctor, right?[/quote95c6ee4f7d]

Its not so much a medical issue as it is a political and moral issue.

Those pictures I posted are of partial birth abortion witch he can not deni dose take place.

So as long as i'm stating fact. Who gives a shit if hes a doctor? Not me!

[quoteff2d4d0d33="TryinToGetPaid"]
So like I said, why not make it legal where mothers who are going to have an abortion, whether it be because of rape, or just an unwanted pregnancy, where the equipment is clean and it is safe for the mother. I agree that abortion is wrong, but it is someones choice to have it, so why not make it safe?[/quoteff2d4d0d33]

Than why inforce any law at all? Should we legalize bank robbery so that it is safer for felons?

Almost 99% of all U.S. abortions, the woman having the abortion chose to have sexual intercourse in the first place. Rape acounts for a very small number when it comes to abortion.

If your responsible enuff to have sex you should be responsible enuff to take responsibility for your own actions. You shouldn't be allowed to kill the baby out of convince or becouse the baby is just unwanted. Put it up for adoption or anything just don't kill it.

Robbing a bank and stealing money that is not yours is a totally opposite issue than someone who has become pregnant and has been raped or is financially unable to care for, or give up the baby is two totally different things.

[quote60dec67ecd="JordanE"][quote60dec67ecd="hehehhehe"]
Communism (not in avatar but was stated)? That can be argued for the other side as well if no abortions were allowed. It would even be a stronger argument in that case, since the government would be telling women what to do against their will, whereas right now they are free to choose. This is an obvious use of a sword that cuts both ways that you’ve decided to use solely to support your views.[/quote60dec67ecd]

Abortion wasn't legal just like stealing isn't legal. Know had a right to abortion in America. It wouldn't be communistic to keep something illegal that wasn't ever legal. It also woudn't be communistic to allow each state to make there own abortion laws. It is however communistic to force each state to to abide by brand new abortion laws regardless of each states own opinion.[/quote60dec67ecd]
Wait, you're not even arguing against what I said. You'd still be enforcing people against their will. Anyway, my point is that the communism argument can be used wither way but you're still "using it" your way so you obviously don't get it at all.

[quote60dec67ecd="JordanE"][quote60dec67ecd="hehehhehe"]
If life is so important, why aren't Iraqi civilian deaths counted in that figure in your avatar? Are their lives not worth it? There are tens of thousands that have died, including babies and children.
[/quote60dec67ecd]
This is true. But there is a big diffrence between war and day to day life. Not to mention that a significant portion of Iraqi civilians killed in this war have been killed by there own people. Though tragic it is. This is also a time of war.[/quote60dec67ecd]
So why are you comparing two things with such "a big difference" in your avatar (this is the point many have an issue with)? If we followed your logic, we shouldn't count abortion deaths either since they are also caused by their own people.

[quotedc031b38d8="TryinToGetPaid"]Robbing a bank and stealing money that is not yours is a totally opposite issue than someone who has become pregnant and has been raped or is financially unable to care for, or give up the baby is two totally different things.[/quotedc031b38d8]

That was ment to be taken as a metaphor I wasn't actually comparing every aspect of the two.

Given the circumstance that bolth are illegal why should it be the government and the taxpayers responsibility to make sure that you are safer while you commit the crime.

[quotefc3c1efab2="hehehhehe"]
So why are you comparing two things with such "a big difference" in your avatar (this is the point many have an issue with)? If we followed your logic, we shouldn't count abortion deaths either since they are also caused by their own people.[/quotefc3c1efab2]

And yet again you guys are ignoring the fact that I have clearly stated multiple times [bfc3c1efab2]I DIDN'T MAKE THIS AVATAR[/bfc3c1efab2] I am using it to droll attention to the number abortions that have taken place. Like said before. If I made this avatar I would have said "Liberalism has killed more people than hitler"


Your question is best suited for the person who made the avatar hehehhehe not me.

[quote20dba2f830="JordanE"][quote20dba2f830="hehehhehe"]
So why are you comparing two things with such "a big difference" in your avatar (this is the point many have an issue with)? If we followed your logic, we shouldn't count abortion deaths either since they are also caused by their own people.[/quote20dba2f830]

And yet again you guys are ignoring the fact that I have clearly stated multiple times [b20dba2f830]I DIDN'T MAKE THIS AVATAR[/b20dba2f830] I am using it to droll attention to the number abortions that have taken place. Like said before. If I made this avatar I would have said "Liberalism has killed more people than hitler"


Your question is best suited for the person who made the avatar hehehhehe not me.[/quote20dba2f830]

If you didn't make the avatar and don't agree with it, why would you display it?

[quote9f1ace22c5="JordanE"][quote9f1ace22c5="doylnea"]
You realize you're arguing medicine and medical issues with a medical doctor, right?[/quote9f1ace22c5]

Its not so much a medical issue as it is a political and moral issue.

Those pictures I posted are of partial birth abortion witch he can not deni dose take place.

So as long as i'm stating fact. Who gives a shit if hes a doctor? Not me![/quote9f1ace22c5]

i have to go out of town but this is the problem with your argument about abortion.

it is a medical issue first. it is a human welfare issue first in terms of the fetus and of the mother. Partial abortions or late pregnancy or third trimester abortions are different from 1st or second trimester abortions. again, your logic is lacking. I do not hate all white people b/c my brother hit me with a baseball bat and he is white. therefore I should not damn all abortions b/c some are done at 37weeks.
the right to health care comes first. the right to health care, accurate information to make medical decisions, etc is a basic human right.
the morality of the decisions comes second, maybe even third. politics comes last. if our policy makers and politicians were less-concerned about voters and more concerned about what the people want maybe things would be better. morality...who's morality? even if you look into catholic doctrine you will see a most important tenet - "judge not lest ye be judged." you have no basis to judge a raped 14 year old who is carrying a baby. let God be the judge after she terminates the pregnancy at 14 weeks. you have no right to do so. that is her right.

i have to go, but all I stress is for you and everyone, including myself, to never take what people tell you at face value. validate it yourself.

[quote557eb9024c="JordanE"]If your responsible enuff to have sex you should be responsible enuff to take responsibility for your own actions. You shouldn't be allowed to kill the baby out of convince or becouse the baby is just unwanted. Put it up for adoption or anything just don't kill it.[/quote557eb9024c]

People are also responsible enough to drive but still get into and cause accidents. Should we stop people having insurance or being able to get the car fixed?

Yes, I am comparing abortion to car insurance.

You're comparing the legality of abortion to Communism and how "bad" it is, yet you want to allow the people in charge to decide whether or not a woman is allowed to have an abortion or not.

Can you still not see why your arguement doesn't hold up?

wtf happened here? I checked this thread when it started and he wanted to borrow $20 and now there's 3 pages of political / religious arguments...... ?

[quote5164a37cc1="johnjimjones"]wtf happened here? I checked this thread when it started and he wanted to borrow $20 and now there's 3 pages of political / religious arguments...... ?[/quote5164a37cc1]
Hehe, I was thinking the same exact thing, but you beat me to the post )

[quote4ffe1e21f0="jy3"][quote4ffe1e21f0="JordanE"][quote4ffe1e21f0="doylnea"]
You realize you're arguing medicine and medical issues with a medical doctor, right?[/quote4ffe1e21f0]

Its not so much a medical issue as it is a political and moral issue.

Those pictures I posted are of partial birth abortion witch he can not deni dose take place.

So as long as i'm stating fact. Who gives a shit if hes a doctor? Not me![/quote4ffe1e21f0]

i have to go out of town but this is the problem with your argument about abortion.

it is a medical issue first. it is a human welfare issue first in terms of the fetus and of the mother. Partial abortions or late pregnancy or third trimester abortions are different from 1st or second trimester abortions. again, your logic is lacking. I do not hate all white people b/c my brother hit me with a baseball bat and he is white. therefore I should not damn all abortions b/c some are done at 37weeks.
the right to health care comes first. the right to health care, accurate information to make medical decisions, etc is a basic human right.
the morality of the decisions comes second, maybe even third. politics comes last. if our policy makers and politicians were less-concerned about voters and more concerned about what the people want maybe things would be better. morality...who's morality? even if you look into catholic doctrine you will see a most important tenet - "judge not lest ye be judged." you have no basis to judge a raped 14 year old who is carrying a baby. let God be the judge after she terminates the pregnancy at 14 weeks. you have no right to do so. that is her right.

i have to go, but all I stress is for you and everyone, including myself, to never take what people tell you at face value. validate it yourself.[/quote4ffe1e21f0]

I'm not judging the rape victim who had an abortion, i'm judging abortion itself.

Though rape is tragic. It still olny acounts for about 1% of all abortions. So what about the other 99% who the overwhelming majority get abortions purely becouse they don't want the kid?

[quotee0e918e425="theysayjump"][quotee0e918e425="JordanE"]If your responsible enuff to have sex you should be responsible enuff to take responsibility for your own actions. You shouldn't be allowed to kill the baby out of convince or becouse the baby is just unwanted. Put it up for adoption or anything just don't kill it.[/quotee0e918e425]

People are also responsible enough to drive but still get into and cause accidents. Should we stop people having insurance or being able to get the car fixed?

Yes, I am comparing abortion to car insurance.

You're comparing the legality of abortion to Communism and how "bad" it is, yet you want to allow the people in charge to decide whether or not a woman is allowed to have an abortion or not.

Can you still not see why your arguement doesn't hold up?[/quotee0e918e425]


I want it to be a state issue. Where we all have a say becouse we vote in are state officials. On the other hand members of the Supreme Court are appointed not elected. So like it or not no one here had any say in Roe Vs. Wade at all. With such a touchy issue like abortion that varies so much from person to person and state to state. It is pretty direct communism to allow the supreme court to decide whats best for every state instead of letting each state decide for them selves.

In case you still don't get it Roe Vs. Wade being over turned will NOT make all abortions illegal. It will allow each state (where citizens have the political power to vote in its state officials) To decide whats best for there state and there citizens instead of having the supreme court tell them whats best for them.

Can you still not see how your arguement and Roe Vs. Wade is falling apart?

I might as well state my opinion on the whole issue..

There are liberals out there that perceive the human fetus as a mere appendage. Neither human or animal and feel it is OK to terminate this appendage's life, because they don't see it as a human being. This kind of perception is very narrow-minded and dense.

Then there are Neo-Feminists out there that scream "It's our bodies! We have the right to do with it what we please!"... It isn't just your body anymore, its another human being (Yes, It's a human. Not an appendage, or an alien growing in your belly). And the fact that one could just go to the doctor and get their baby killed and decaptiated is just sickening.. Far left-wing Liberals are to blame for this atrocity.

Now, I know that women are vulnerable to rape and if a woman got raped, she can do something about it before the baby begins to develop.. But to wait a few months after a rape when theres brain activity and a heartbeat.. That's just reckless and idiotic behavior.

Abortions should be used "conservatively" only in hospitals where an incident of rape was reported and there should be a strict timeline for it to be taken care of, otherwise she must bear the child for the full-term, come back to the hospital for C-Section and put the child up for adoption. It shouldn't be used "liberally" where a woman can just go make a 200 appointment to kill the 3 month old baby growing inside and go have a cheeseburger afterwards.

I'm in no way, shape or form attacking any liberal users on this board... There are liberals on here that I have great respect for; despite our different views. It's just the far-left ones that believe there should be no laws and regulation. Far Left Liberalism is just a step up from Anarchy.

[quote38f4fd5688="tjwor"]I was trying to look at this whole convo without putting my own feelings in it, and I'd say JordanE was teh best debator here, for being 16 he pretty much smoked everyone here...

Maybe i'm biased to his opinion because most of it is the same as mine shrug

And I don't think people should tell him to grow up or shit, he's just defending what he feels, he didn't make a thread that said "Hey everyone, read my aviator and i'm going to debate you with it" someone else brought it up and started going after him, he was just standing up for himself...

+Karma JordanE[/quote38f4fd5688]

[quote38f4fd5688="h3x"]From a fellow conservative, I must say you did a great job at keeping your cool in this "abortion debate thread", and your points were valid and straight to the point.

If you still need $20, I can help you out. I know you're trustworthy.[/quote38f4fd5688]

Didn't see these posts untill just now thanks. +karm to bolth of you when I can.

[quote87cb5aa55e="JordanE"]I want it to be a state issue. Where we all have a say becouse we vote in are state officials. On the other hand members of the Supreme Court are appointed not elected. So like it or not no one here had any say in Roe Vs. Wade at all. With such a touchy issue like abortion that varies so much from person to person and state to state. It is pretty direct communism to allow the supreme court to decide whats best for every state instead of letting each state decide for them selves.

In case you still don't get it Roe Vs. Wade being over turned will NOT make all abortions illegal. It will allow each state (where citizens have the political power to vote in its state officials) To decide whats best for there state and there citizens instead of having the supreme court tell them whats best for them.

Can you still not see how your arguement and Roe Vs. Wade is falling apart?[/quote87cb5aa55e]

No. Please tell me how my Roe vs Wade arguement is falling apart?

You're preaching about how bad Communism is and that it's somehow Liberalism bordering on Communism.

I do "get" that if Roe vs Wade is overturned it won't make abortion illegal, but that's not my point. Once again, you're preaching about big, bad naughty Communism, but you want each State (people in charge) to decide what's right for a woman when the woman should be allowed to do with her body. You don't want Communism yet you advocate it to be used at a State level.

Does it affect your life or anyone elses if a woman decides to have an abortion? Is your life any different because a woman somewhere on the other side of the country has an abortion? No.

So why should your views, or your State representatives views, be imposed on people who should be allowed to make their own decision, especially when it's only affecting themselves and themselves alone (discounting the fetus)?

I do agree that partial birth abortions are wrong however.

Once again jump you completely missed the point.

[quote72ad563610]
I do "get" that if Roe vs Wade is overturned it won't make abortion illegal, but that's not my point. Once again, you're preaching about big, bad naughty Communism, but you want each State (people in charge) to decide what's right for a woman when the woman should be allowed to do with her body. You don't want Communism yet you advocate it to be used at a State level.[/quote72ad563610]

I never once advocated communism to be used at a state level. This must be where you stopped reading most post. I said abortion should be a state issue [b72ad563610]becouse[/b72ad563610] last time I checked citizens vote in the state officals. It is very easy to see what a candidate stands for. Are they pro life? Pro choice? Liberal? Conservative? It is your civic duty to make an informed decision before you vote.

Lets say Roe Vs. Wade gets over turned. And at the next election the state [b72ad563610]votes[/b72ad563610] in a pro life governor. He decides to make abortion illegal. As along as he was voted in by the citizens of that state. It would not be communism for him to pass that law. That would be him doing the job that he was openly elected to do.

Why I said what the supreme court did was borderline communism. Was becouse they are APPOINTED! They are not elected. Forcing the outcome of Roe Vs. Wade on the states without regard of citizens opinions is communistic. They acted without regard of democracy. appointed officials should simply not be allowed to pass laws that infringe on indovisual states rights.

Abortion is a clear cut states right issue as that is the olny way to ensure that democracy is up held. Whats right for California isn't always right for Texas.

[quote72ad563610]Does it affect your life or anyone elses if a woman decides to have an abortion? Is your life any different because a woman somewhere on the other side of the country has an abortion? No.[/quote72ad563610]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Did the columbine shooting directly effect your life? No! Did it directly effect anyone other than the victims (just like abortion olny effects its victims and the familys) and there familys? No! Dose this make it okay? Hell No!

[quote72ad563610]
So why should your views, or your State representatives views, be imposed on people who should be allowed to make their own decision, especially when it's only affecting themselves and themselves alone (discounting the fetus)?[/quote72ad563610]

This country is not ran by Anarchy! State representatives work for our government. If they are voted into power it is there job to act in the intrest of the people they govern.

Activity such as underage drinking (sorry TylerC lol ) olny effects the indovisual who is drinking. But it is still illegal for good reason.

Abortion effects the indovisual having the abortion and and the victim.

I'm not liberal just FYI...

Liberal or Conservative. As long as you don't attack me personally for my views, you're all right in my books. I'm open to debate, but only if it's civil.

JordanE expressed his view through his avatar. Even though we both agree about the issue, I don't think he should have been attacked for it.

If someone on the boards had a avatar of a pot leaf with a circled slash or had some goofy message like, "Marijuana turns 1.2 million people into psychoatic serial killers". I would offer to debate the issue in a civil manner with the person directly, instead of attacking him out of nowhere in one of his threads that is completely irrelevant to the issue.

Now that this thread has shift focus out of nowhere, maybe it should be renamed.

I didn't attack him on his views, I just said his avatar doesn't make sense. In the end, it seems he couldn't explain the numbers in it either and told me to take it up with the avatar's creator. shrug I would rather him just type out "Abortion is wrong" in his sig or something.

Does my avatar offend anyone? I'd love to debate it; in a civil manner of course.

I think I may have found the solution.


Right Here[=http//www.trojancondoms.com/freestuff/Product/main.asp?S_Type=Mint]Right Here

......minty

wink

[quote5536e3fbc5="hehehhehe"]I didn't attack him on his views, I just said his avatar doesn't make sense. In the end, it seems he couldn't explain the numbers in it either and told me to take it up with the avatar's creator. shrug I would rather him just type out "Abortion is wrong" in his sig or something.[/quote5536e3fbc5]

My views on abortion where bluntly attacked. Not by you directly. I was also subjected to religious stereotyping. You don't have to be a Catholic to be pro life you could be Christian (like me), Jewish, or anyother religain, you could even be an eathest for that matter.

Secondly I explained the numbers in my avatar pretty clearly. You didn't seem to understand it or there was some miscommunication but either way i'm tired of typing the same thing over and over again. I could care less what you would "rather" I do.

Its pretty clear what the numbers mean. What dosen't seem to be clear is how it all fits together. So I will explain it again but any additional questions should be asked to the avatars creater.

The left always seems to wanna bring up the loss of life (witch is actually a pretty low number for a war thats been going on for almost four years)in Iraq on the military side. Yet fails to acknowledge the far worst loss of life coused by abortion every year. There are over ONE MILLION abortions in America alone every year.

The avatar compares the total body count from Iraq (2,000) to the total abortion body count in America 40,000,000+ but grows by the thousands everyday.

Instead of democrats it should say Liberalism as not all democrats are very liberal on abortion issues. But the overwhelming majority are. So I can kind of understand why the creater put democrats though it is somewhat close minded its not a huge exaggeration.

For the Hitler remark. Its a fairly simple (again it shouldn't say democrats it should say liberalism) it states that there have been more innocent victims killed by abortion than there ways from Hitler. People generally associate Hitler with a horrific loss of life.

Bottom line is that some of you screwed up by attacking him out of nowhere in a thread that was completely irrelevant. Jordan has had this avatar for at least a month and the issue was never brought up.

irannaked decided to attack Jordan out of nowhere, and some of you followed. I know some of you like hehehhehe regret their actions and they have learned their lessons. To those out there that still justify any insults they made, you need to learn yours and move on from this subject. If you still want to make your arguements heard, do it without insulting someone with stereotypes.

[quotec771c1cb13="h3x"]Bottom line is that some of you screwed up by attacking him out of nowhere in a thread that was completely irrelevant. Jordan has had this avatar for at least a month and the issue was never brought up.

irannaked decided to attack Jordan out of nowhere, and some of you followed. I know some of you like hehehhehe regret their actions and they have learned their lessons. To those out there that still justify any insults they made, you need to learn yours and move on from this subject. If you still want to make your arguements heard, do it without insulting someone with stereotypes.[/quotec771c1cb13]
So how the hell did I learn my lesson again? I don't really regret anything I said, I just apologized for the thread crapping. As far as stereotyping goes, I think that goes both ways. I have no idea why you posted this, the best would've been to let this thread die. ?

JordanE, you didn't need to explain the numbers used, they are pretty obvious. As for applicability and/or appropriateness, see my previous posts.

[quoteb7acb46ceb="hehehhehe"][quoteb7acb46ceb="h3x"]Bottom line is that some of you screwed up by attacking him out of nowhere in a thread that was completely irrelevant. Jordan has had this avatar for at least a month and the issue was never brought up.

irannaked decided to attack Jordan out of nowhere, and some of you followed. I know some of you like hehehhehe regret their actions and they have learned their lessons. To those out there that still justify any insults they made, you need to learn yours and move on from this subject. If you still want to make your arguements heard, do it without insulting someone with stereotypes.[/quoteb7acb46ceb]
So how the hell did I learn my lesson again? I don't really regret anything I said, I just apologized for the thread crapping. As far as stereotyping goes, I think that goes both ways. I have no idea why you posted this, the best would've been to let this thread die. ?

JordanE, you didn't need to explain the numbers used, they are pretty obvious. As for applicability and/or appropriateness, see my previous posts.[/quoteb7acb46ceb]

Your thread crapping was what I was referring to. It's not your arguements, you have every right to express your views.

By all means leave the thread alive. Abortion is an important issue. As long as people have better egucated them selves on bolth sides of abortions than some good has came from the threadjacking.

Finally found this video online. Though i'm sure alot of you are going to say it has a conflict of interest since it deffinitally takes the religious side. The points that it makes and the images that it uses are real and unbiased.

http//youtube.com/watch?v=WtoewGxaVmc&search=abortion

[quotedd2901db30="h3x"]Your thread crapping was what I was referring to. It's not your arguements, you have every right to express your views.[/quotedd2901db30]
Yeah, I really learned a life lesson there, thanks for taking the time to point that out. roll Look, you don't see any of us trying to put other like-minded posters on a crucifix and trying to scold and reprimand the people that don't agree with him. Yeah, you can say it's about the horrible horrible thread crapping but I think JordanE has shown he's a big boy and can handle the 'attack'. So if you want to put your thoughts on the line go ahead, but let's stop with the back-patting, it's a useless thread bump.

[b6e44ef6947]h3x[/b6e44ef6947] Thanks for sticking up for me. However your time is better spent sticking up for our shared political views. I would prefer not to have to be the olny one debating for the pro life side when there are others perfectly capable of helping out.

I've already put in my 2 cents about the issue. No one has argued my stance yet.

You guys are blowing it way out of proportion.

The thread was jacked, but I still don't see anyone flame him or attack him. It may seem like you were being attacked JordanE because it came out of nowhere, but the thread has been pretty civil so far, otherwise it would've been locked.

Wolfemans attempts to use my avatar witch has nothing to do with religion. To attack religion was pretty offensive to me being a christian.

I could also see his first commint stereotyping pro life with religion. Being very offensive to pro life eathists.

I am pro-choice but I think that partial birth/late term abortion should be illegal (granted there is an exception for the health of the mother [everyone can agree to that?]).

I participated in a pro-choice march a few years back in Washington (a million+ people!) and the image that stuck in my mind was a sign being held up with a large picture of an aborted fetus. what disturbed me about it wasn't the picture though. The little girl holding it up standing next to her family could not have been more than 8 or 9 years old. Occasionally i'll drive past a pro-life protest, I don't want to see that stuff. A disgusting picture is for shock value. Do those pictures changes peoples minds? Sometimes in my city there are demonstrations to show support for the war. I think next time i'll make sure to bring a giant photo of soldier with half his torso hanging off.


It seems to me the belief that life begins with conseption is a moral and/or religious value. According to jewish beliefs (correct me if i'm wrong fipg jews) human life begins at birth, not at conseption. So saying abortion is killing of another human(aka homicide) is questionable/just the opinion of one group of people which holds no more validity than to the next group.

nobody can save the world, nor does anyone have the right too. you can live your life according to the beliefs that you hold dear as long as they don't infringe upon others rights. When the ability to have an abortion is taken away one person is being denied the right to live their life according to their beliefs and morals standards. thats my argument in a nutshell


EDIT
[quotec323b6faf2="JordanE"]Wolfemans attempts to use my avatar witch has nothing to do with religion. To attack religion was pretty offensive to me being a christian.

I could also see his first commint stereotyping pro life with religion. Being very offensive to pro life eathists.[/quotec323b6faf2]

as a christian i didn't find it offensive at all, also i would LOVE to see some abortion/religion statistics

[quote13b37683e3="geej86"]I am pro-choice but I think that partial birth/late term abortion should be illegal (granted there is an exception for the health of the mother [everyone can agreemean you pick and choose when to be pro life and when not to be. Any truly to that?]).[/quote13b37683e3]

A truly pro life individual would see abortion as wrong no matter what the circumstances. Much like a truly pro choice individual would support a womens right to choose no matter what the circumstances even if her choice was to have a partial birth abortion. Health to the mother issues, Rape, and incest. Acount for less than 3% of all abortions (over 1,000,000+ each year) in America.


[quote13b37683e3="geej86"]
I participated in a pro-choice march a few years back in Washington (a million+ people!) and the image that stuck in my mind was a sign being held up with a large picture of an aborted fetus. what disturbed me about it wasn't the picture though. The little girl holding it up standing next to her family could not have been more than 8 or 9 years old. Occasionally i'll drive past a pro-life protest, I don't want to see that stuff. A disgusting picture is for shock value. Do those pictures changes peoples minds?[/quote13b37683e3]

Pictures of partial birth abortions aren't always displayed for the "shock value" they are disgusting images yes. But they are also reality. Half the people I know who support abortion or call them selves pro choice. Have never even heard of partial birth abortion or have know idea of the brutality of some abortions. In short what you call shock value I call informative.

[quote13b37683e3="geej86"]
Sometimes in my city there are demonstrations to show support for the war. I think next time i'll make sure to bring a giant photo of soldier with half his torso hanging off.[/quote13b37683e3]

Go for it. However I can guaranty an image such as the one you described would olny have the opposite effect on the people you intend to "shock". When ever I hear about a US soldier who was mutilated it olny makes me pissed at the person who did it. If anything an image like that would olny further there support for the war. But again you can do what you want.


[quote13b37683e3="geej86"]
It seems to me the belief that life begins with conseption is a moral and/or religious value. According to jewish beliefs (correct me if i'm wrong fipg jews) human life begins at birth, not at conseption. So saying abortion is killing of another human(aka homicide) is questionable/just the opinion of one group of people which holds no more validity than to the next group.[/quote13b37683e3]

Quite the contrary. There is no debate within the medical community as to when life begins. Life begins at conception. Becouse Spermule are living cells therefore religion aside life begins at conception. What dose seem to be up for debate is to when this life is to be considered human. Diffrent religions tend to have diffrent views on this. For instance Catholithism believes that [b13b37683e3]human[/b13b37683e3] life begins at conception. Where as Judaism believes that human life begins at birth.

One thing that needs to be noted is that not everyone in America is religious. There are a great deal of atheists. We can't expect them to care what are religion thinks. Thats why it shoulde be stated that scientifically human life begins when the fetus begins to develope.


[quote13b37683e3="geej86"]
nobody can save the world, nor does anyone have the right too. you can live your life according to the beliefs that you hold dear as long as they don't infringe upon others rights. When the ability to have an abortion is taken away one person is being denied the right to live their life according to their beliefs and morals standards. thats my argument in a nutshell[/quote13b37683e3]

When a person is denied an abortion when abortion is legal that is infringing upon there legal rights. Denying a person an abortion when abortion is NOT legal it isn't infringing upon a persons legal rights at all.

If abortion is no longer legal it is no longer a persons legal right to have an abortion.

Which witch is which?

I think my new favourite word is; Spermulite.

Abortion rights are a personal choice, not a choice based on which political party you belong to. Thus, any claims that democrats have killed X amount of fetuses, well, are plain ridiculous.

[quotef4491c8ed4="theysayjump"]I think my new favourite word is; Spermulite.[/quotef4491c8ed4]


Meh ment to say Spermule lol

[quote1cfa4ea8e7="AlreadyHome"]Abortion rights are a personal choice, not a choice based on which political party you belong to. Thus, any claims that democrats have killed X amount of fetuses, well, are plain ridiculous.[/quote1cfa4ea8e7]


Mind reading the rest of this thread. That particular statement has been discussed to death. We are now discussing wether or not abortion should be legal and if Roe Vs. Wade should be overturned.

[quotef4cda60e70="JordanE"]
[quotef4cda60e70="geej86"]
nobody can save the world, nor does anyone have the right too. you can live your life according to the beliefs that you hold dear as long as they don't infringe upon others rights. When the ability to have an abortion is taken away one person is being denied the right to live their life according to their beliefs and morals standards. thats my argument in a nutshell[/quotef4cda60e70]

When a person is denied an abortion when abortion is legal that is infringing upon there legal rights. Denying a person an abortion when abortion is NOT legal it isn't infringing upon a persons legal rights at all.

If abortion is no longer legal it is no longer a persons legal right to have an abortion.[/quotef4cda60e70]

just so you know i was more talking about human rights

[quoteec93463a28="JordanE"][quoteec93463a28="AlreadyHome"]Abortion rights are a personal choice, not a choice based on which political party you belong to. Thus, any claims that democrats have killed X amount of fetuses, well, are plain ridiculous.[/quoteec93463a28]


Mind reading the rest of this thread. That particular statement has been discussed to death. We are now discussing wether or not abortion should be legal and if Roe Vs. Wade should be overturned.[/quoteec93463a28]

My bad, just did a real quick reply to the first post. I don't get why you can't just go with the pro-choice option. It gives you the right to choose! Choose not to have an abortion! It's genius P

All this relates to him wanting a loan of $20 how?

shock

Sorry but I see him asking for $20, then people talking about abortion and stuff.

See his avatar

[quoteaf70b34726="JordanE"]Abortion is liberalism.[/quoteaf70b34726]
I take serious issue with the above statement, which is entirely UNTRUE.

Abortion is not liberalism nor is the legal right to have one created from liberism. It is based on the principles of the First Amendment and a woman's right to choose.

Stop tying liberism to the right to chose.

And before you make any assumptions, I am personally against abortion, but it's not my right to say what someone else can do with their own body.

I can tell you this if some of these people that are against sexual protection (condoms, the pill, etc.) would open their eyes, they would see that this is a good way to stop abortions. I would support a push to teach sexual responsibility over showing pictures of bloody babies to stop abortion. I'm sure if you do the research, a good amount of abortions are based on people not being responsbile when it comes to being sexually active.

Fear and scare tactics don't stop two people from having sex.

[quote73a916f446="JordanE"][quote73a916f446="hehehhehe"]
So why are you comparing two things with such "a big difference" in your avatar (this is the point many have an issue with)? If we followed your logic, we shouldn't count abortion deaths either since they are also caused by their own people.[/quote73a916f446]

And yet again you guys are ignoring the fact that I have clearly stated multiple times [b73a916f446]I DIDN'T MAKE THIS AVATAR[/b73a916f446] I am using it to droll attention to the number abortions that have taken place. Like said before. If I made this avatar I would have said "Liberalism has killed more people than hitler"


Your question is best suited for the person who made the avatar hehehhehe not me.[/quote73a916f446]
Then make your own avatar so you can stop disclaiming yourself.

Hmm... Aborted babies... so is that what Hot Dogs are made out of? If so, then pass the ketchup. yum, yum.

[quote49b7807305="PsychoAU"]Hmm... Aborted babies... so is that what Hot Dogs are made out of? If so, then pass the ketchup. yum, yum.[/quote49b7807305]

You're trying too hard dude. Give it up.

[quote34efb68562="theysayjump"][quote34efb68562="PsychoAU"]Hmm... Aborted babies... so is that what Hot Dogs are made out of? If so, then pass the ketchup. yum, yum.[/quote34efb68562]

You're trying too hard dude. Give it up.[/quote34efb68562]

Ya rly. A well-timed, funny, tasteless joke comes naturally.

[quoteed08096bea="theysayjump"][quoteed08096bea="PsychoAU"]Hmm... Aborted babies... so is that what Hot Dogs are made out of? If so, then pass the ketchup. yum, yum.[/quoteed08096bea]

You're trying too hard dude. Give it up.[/quoteed08096bea]

LOL.

[quote1a6edf096c="theysayjump"][quote1a6edf096c="PsychoAU"]Hmm... Aborted babies... so is that what Hot Dogs are made out of? If so, then pass the ketchup. yum, yum.[/quote1a6edf096c]

You're trying too hard dude. Give it up.[/quote1a6edf096c]

IAWTC

[quote962ddae564="geej86"][quote962ddae564="JordanE"]
[quote962ddae564="geej86"]
nobody can save the world, nor does anyone have the right too. you can live your life according to the beliefs that you hold dear as long as they don't infringe upon others rights. When the ability to have an abortion is taken away one person is being denied the right to live their life according to their beliefs and morals standards. thats my argument in a nutshell[/quote962ddae564]

When a person is denied an abortion when abortion is legal that is infringing upon there legal rights. Denying a person an abortion when abortion is NOT legal it isn't infringing upon a persons legal rights at all.

If abortion is no longer legal it is no longer a persons legal right to have an abortion.[/quote962ddae564]

just so you know i was more talking about human rights[/quote962ddae564]


There is no human right to an abortion. There are "reproductive rights". But if abortion is illegal and is seen as murder it wouldn't matter.

[quote167d08630b="chillywilly"][quote167d08630b="JordanE"]Abortion is liberalism.[/quote167d08630b]
I take serious issue with the above statement, which is entirely UNTRUE.

Abortion is not liberalism nor is the legal right to have one created from liberism. It is based on the principles of the First Amendment and a woman's right to choose.

Stop tying liberism to the right to chose.

And before you make any assumptions, I am personally against abortion, but it's not my right to say what someone else can do with their own body.

I can tell you this if some of these people that are against sexual protection (condoms, the pill, etc.) would open their eyes, they would see that this is a good way to stop abortions. I would support a push to teach sexual responsibility over showing pictures of bloody babies to stop abortion. I'm sure if you do the research, a good amount of abortions are based on people not being responsbile when it comes to being sexually active.

Fear and scare tactics don't stop two people from having sex.[/quote167d08630b]


The meaning of liberalism

[quote167d08630b]Liberalism is an ideology, philosophical view, and political tradition which holds that liberty is the primary political value. Traditionally, what was meant by "liberty" was the freedom of each individual to do as they pleased, provided they did not infringe on the liberty of others. This is often called classical liberalism. [/quote167d08630b]

The abortion laws set by Roe Vs. Wade are very direct liberal laws. Any true liberal would support are current abortion laws as they are pretty much the most liberal laws we have.

I agree with you on sex education though. I think the number is like in 75% of abortions the person having the abortion done didn't use safe sex or misused birth control.

last time i am going to post in this thread.
i find it interesting that jordane quoted my entire post and failed to comment on the logical aspects.
I suggest that we all not peg people into conservative or liberal. many of my views would fall under one or the other.
the problem with the states mandating abortion, jordane, is that, as I told you previously, the federal government has a responsibility to give people the acces to healthcare. that is a basic human right that has been ratified by most nations on this planet. if jane in NY can get access to an abortion clinic but josephine in NJ can't even get a condom let alone access to an abortion clinic how is that the same access to healthcare?
another comment that I wanted to make is that I would interested to know what percentage of people who are pro-life fall within the realm of the teachings of jesus christ. You have to admit that most people's views on this issue are colored by these teachings. if this is true then why should views based in a religion that is actively persued by not all people in this country?
Lastly, I see that you stole my advise, to understand all aspects of both sides. that is good. I also suggest that you highly critique the statistics and things that you read in media outlets that are strongly for one issue or against another.

[quote29b968c09d="JordanE"]The meaning of liberalism

[quote29b968c09d]Liberalism is an ideology, philosophical view, and political tradition which holds that liberty is the primary political value. Traditionally, what was meant by "liberty" was the freedom of each individual to do as they pleased, provided they did not infringe on the liberty of others. This is often called classical liberalism. [/quote29b968c09d][/quote29b968c09d]
I can agree with that. And really see nothing wrong with liberalism, since the freedom to make choices is one of the main principles this country was founded on. I would much rather have freedoms and rights extended then have law after law made, adding further restrictions for what people choose to do with themselves. Sure, some laws are needed. I'm not saying to have a lawless society.

Regarldess of my personal views on abortion, I would never think to force that on anyone else... especially making it against the law. We tried that with prohibition back in the day and had to enact another amendment to repeal the amendment that made booze illegal. Granted, we are not talking about a constitutional amendment to ban abortions ([i29b968c09d]shuddering at the thought of that ever happening[/i29b968c09d]), but if they were made illegal, I could see the underground market flourishing to meet the demand. As I said in a previous post, it's not banning abortions that are going to stop them. When they banned alcohol, it was still available, albeit illegally. Just because you make something illegal doesn't mean it will stop. This is why I favor education (not scaring the shit out of prospective abortion clients and inducing fear with bloody pictures) and personal responsibility.

I don't mind certain restrictions placed on abortions, but I would to see them be remain available and not made so impossible that we create an underground outlet. Partial birth is one restriction I think everyone on both sides would agree to.

I'm not trying to equate abortions and alcohol. But I'm sure there are just as many conservatives that think alcohol is just as evil as abortion, maybe more so depending on if they've ever been affected by bad effects from its use. Sure, alcohol has caused deaths.... sometimes more than just the drunk person. And I've known a few people that have been killed or injured by drunk drivers. And I am sure there are some very passionate people that would love to bring back prohibition to "STOP THE KILLING!" But you know, it's a personal choice and right for someone to drink. A lot of people are responsible with their drinking and their lives and the lives of others are never affected.

You are more then free to have your views and rights, but as soon you feel your views trump everyone else's by taking away that right from anyone else, that's along the lines of supporting a dictatorship. And I really don't want to start that kind of trend in this country. Our dumbass elected officials already are wanting to ban gay marriage, flag burning and restricting voting rights. If those are things that are requirements for being a conservative, then I'm happy to be a liberal and supporting rights and freedoms, regardless if someone else thinks it's wrong or immoral.

[quote29b968c09d="JordanE"]I agree with you on sex education though. I think the number is like in 75% of abortions the person having the abortion done didn't use safe sex or misused birth control.[/quote29b968c09d]
At least we agree on one point. I feel if at least half of all those that consider themselves "pro-life" were to focus on this part, the abortion issue wouldn't be of such a great concern.

[quotebdd24366ea="TryinToGetPaid"]If the government regulated it and taxed it-- it would save this country a lot of money.

In 2002, 45.7 percent of all drug arrests, were marijuana related. State and local justice costs for marijuana arrests are now estimated to be $7.6 billion (approximately $10,400 per arrest) I do not see the need to waste so much money on a petty drug which offers less harm to the person consuming it than alcohol does.

Does anyone know if there has been a study that compares people driving while drunk, to people that drive while high?

Back onto abortion-- If you were a girl, and were raped. And you did not want to have the baby, and abortions were illegal you would HAVE to go to an illegal abortionist, and run the risk of dying as well.[/quotebdd24366ea]

i say you have the most AWESOME points ever, seriously.

Marijuana is less harmful then alcohol.
Sure there hasn't been testing on this, but through my "own" testing i can say, alcohol is more gayer then "Queer eye for the straight guy" and Ellen D. Generous.


Also on the teenage girls being raped, happens alot. One way to prevent a young girl from having her life ruined is a...come on guy's ABORTION!!



OHH!! the driving while high and drunk thing...driving high clears your mind.While being drunk make you incoherent to things around you...haha

[quote7cb09df3e8="h3x"]Bottom line is that some of you screwed up by attacking him out of nowhere in a thread that was completely irrelevant. Jordan has had this avatar for at least a month and the issue was never brought up.

irannaked decided to attack Jordan out of nowhere, and some of you followed.[/quote7cb09df3e8]


WHOOAA HORSY!!


where do you decide that i "attack"'d jordan e at all?

no where. ALL i was stating was that i'm against the war. THATS IT!! nothing about abortion, nothing that war is good OR bad, nothing even about hitler.


so why the hell do you bring it down on me?


that's attacking my friend.



ALSO, let me put it out there that i'm not a democrat NOR republician, i my self am a individual and if you want my view's on this whole abortion thing, then post and i will let you all know.


thanks

[quotec2ccc18e25="jy3"]last time i am going to post in this thread.
i find it interesting that jordane quoted my entire post and failed to comment on the logical aspects.
I suggest that we all not peg people into conservative or liberal. many of my views would fall under one or the other.
the problem with the states mandating abortion, jordane, is that, as I told you previously, the federal government has a responsibility to give people the acces to healthcare. that is a basic human right that has been ratified by most nations on this planet. if jane in NY can get access to an abortion clinic but josephine in NJ can't even get a condom let alone access to an abortion clinic how is that the same access to healthcare?[/quotec2ccc18e25]

If its a clinic than the government runs it witch means the tax payers are paying for it. If you live in a state witch is overwhelming pro life. Why should the citizens of that state pay there hard earned money to fund something that they themselves don't believe in and are probably strongly against.

Like I said before, whats right for one state isn't always right for the next.

The reality is we have conservative, Liberal, And Independent states. With an issue like abortion that every state has its own opinion on why not let each state make up there own mind on abortion? We let states make there own laws on several other issues like driving age, gun contral..etc including issues that are just as contervisual as abortion such as gay marriage. What would be the real harm in making abortion a state issue?

If at the very least Roe Vs. Wade should be looked back into since Norma L. McCorvey (Jane Roe) lied about the circumstances of her pregnancy. She claimed she was raped and went as far as to give a detailed account of her rape. But now openly admits that she was lying and that her pregnancy resulted from consenting sex. She is an insult to rape victims. The fact that she could lie about such an atrocidy like rape to gain support for her cause and possibly used it to persuade the outcome of her case should be enuff to have the case looked into.

[quotec2ccc18e25="jy3"]
another comment that I wanted to make is that I would interested to know what percentage of people who are pro-life fall within the realm of the teachings of jesus christ. You have to admit that most people's views on this issue are colored by these teachings. if this is true then why should views based in a religion that is actively persued by not all people in this country?[/quotec2ccc18e25]

I stated my opinion on this in a previous post. I've never used religion to back any statments that I have made in this thread. You can't simply assume that being pro life means you are also religious.

You are trying to pass off pro life as a radical religious idea and I personally find it offensive.


[quotec2ccc18e25="jy3"]
Lastly, I see that you stole my advise, to understand all aspects of both sides. that is good. I also suggest that you highly critique the statistics and things that you read in media outlets that are strongly for one issue or against another.[/quotec2ccc18e25]

Hate to breack it to you but just about anyone seriously intrested in a particular subject has "stolen" your advise roll I come from a politically diverse family. I have a brother who is an Anarchist, Anther brother who is a respected (very liberal) democrat in Iowa, A sister who affiliates herself with the Green party, A republican mother and father, and me a conservative republican. I keep myself informed on all sides of an issue especially abortion.

[quote691794471b="JordanE"]If its a clinic than the government runs it witch means the tax payers are paying for it. If you live in a state witch is overwhelming pro life. Why should the citizens of that state pay there hard earned money to fund something that they themselves don't believe in and are probably strongly against.[/quote691794471b]

Why should the citizens pay taxes so that Bush can fund a war that they don't believe in and are strongly against?

Why should British people pay taxes to keep the Royal Family living in palaces, sailing in cruise ships, living in luxury, having their arses wiped, when not everyone agrees with it?

The people in charge, aren't always in the right.

[quote691794471b="JordanE"]Like I said before, whats right for one state isn't always right for the next.[/quote691794471b]

Your statement should be

"What's right for one person isn't always right for the next".

Each person is allowed to make their own decision about their body, as opposed to what their neighbours think they should do with their body (by voting and having the law passed in their state).

[quotec8979723e4="JordanE"]The reality is we have conservative, Liberal, And Independent states. With an issue like abortion that every state has its own opinion on why not let each state make up there own mind on abortion? We let states make there own laws on several other issues like driving age, gun contral..etc including issues that are just as contervisual as abortion such as gay marriage. What would be the real harm in making abortion a state issue?[/quotec8979723e4]

If the Mods/Admins here decided to ban all people who liked the Sex Pistols, just because you guys had voted and appointed us Mods/Admins (used to happen, not so much anymore), would that make it fair? No.

People should be allowed to join the forum regardless of music they like.

Same goes for abortion. What about the "liberals" or the people who feel they have the right to choose if they have an abortion or not, but live in a majority "pro-life" state. They then wouldn't be allowed to do what they felt was right or what they believed in.

Gun control, driving restrictions etc can be regulated by States because those can directly affect others in a very harmful and fatal way. Gun control because without it, nutjobs could get as many guns as they like and kill hundreds of people. Driving restrictions (such as speed limits, minimum age, the limit that you can drink and still drive etc) because they also can directly harm others.

[quoteea8d733a40="JordanE"]If its a clinic than the government runs it witch means the tax payers are paying for it. If you live in a state witch is overwhelming pro life. Why should the citizens of that state pay there hard earned money to fund something that they themselves don't believe in and are probably strongly against.[/quoteea8d733a40]
So what you are saying in effect, is that majority rules. This country was founded on the idea of equality, not majority rules. Again, if you are of the notion that whatver the majority is, they make the rules, that is a dictatorship. A society that says "you are a minority, therefore you have no rights because us, the majority, says it is this way" is under rule of some sort of king or dictator. People want equality, not to be told this is how you have to live or else.

Also, there are a lot of government programs, both state and federal, that fund all sorts of causes that people personally don't agree with. If you really knew where your tax dollars went to, you would be against more than just abortion.

I'm gathering that your age is correct under your avatar. This would be a great conversation to revisit in 5 years, as I really think your views and thoughts may change to a certain degree over that time. Or they may not. I've always been liberal since I first took US history in high school. But I really don't know too many kids that are conservative that stay conservative, unless their parents' views are a huge influence and stay influential over the years.

One point to consider gun rights. Guns have killed innocent people. If you use the same logic to equate that abortion is killing an innocent life, then why are guns legal? BTW, I've met and talked to and debated this very same topic with fervent gun owners who are also against abortion. The illogical feedback from them is quite mind-boggling.

Also, have to say that TSJ's posts make a lot of sense.

[quote87f50b28ae="JordanE"]The reality is we have conservative, Liberal, And Independent states. With an issue like abortion that every state has its own opinion on why not let each state make up there own mind on abortion? We let states make there own laws on several other issues like driving age, gun contral..etc including issues that are just as contervisual as abortion such as gay marriage. What would be the real harm in making abortion a state issue?[/quote87f50b28ae]
Moving something like drinking age, smoking age, driving age, gun control and things like that are already state controlled, with some federal overrides in those areas.

The major problem I see with abortion being state controlled is it really would never please the people that are against it. Who's to say that one state bans it completely but yet a neighboring state allows it. Women that want an abortion would simply find a way to the other state to have the abortion.

The major issue with this is medical and health related and could very well impact the state the woman that has the abortion lives in. If she has medical complications that need to be addressed, the state she lives in could end up paying for medical needs related to something they are against. Not to mention all of the anti-abortionists that can't live with themselves knowing that there are women getting abortions somewhere in their country.

Man, I could go on and on about this. But in the end, it's your opinion and view. And that's the beauty of living in this country and that right that's been aforded to you and all of us.

[quote6c399a7e2d="chillywilly"]So what you are saying in effect, is that majority rules. This country was founded on the idea of equality, not majority rules. Again, if you are of the notion that whatver the majority is, they make the rules, that is a dictatorship.[/quote6c399a7e2d]

The majority vote from the electoral college elects the president. The majority popular vote elects virtually every office, passes proposals, etc. The majority elects a representative to make decisions for the population. I'd be interested in hearing what a more fair way to decide a Yes/No, Person A or Person B, Legal or Illegal choice is.

[quote2315b8c995="CollidgeGraduit"][quote2315b8c995="chillywilly"]So what you are saying in effect, is that majority rules. This country was founded on the idea of equality, not majority rules. Again, if you are of the notion that whatver the majority is, they make the rules, that is a dictatorship.[/quote2315b8c995]

The majority vote from the electoral college elects the president. The majority popular vote elects virtually every office, passes proposals, etc. The majority elects a representative to make decisions for the population. I'd be interested in hearing what a more fair way to decide a Yes/No, Person A or Person B, Legal or Illegal choice is.[/quote2315b8c995]
In the debate about abortion, we are talking about personal choice and human rights. What you are referring to is elections, which are and always have been based on majority. While I personally think the electoral college needs to be reorganized, issues like abortion should never be based on majority. That is what the constitution is for and protects.

[quote900e360cf4]
I stated my opinion on this in a previous post. I've never used religion to back any statments that I have made in this thread. You can't simply assume that being pro life means you are also religious.

You are trying to pass off pro life as a radical religious idea and I personally find it offensive.[/quote900e360cf4]
I am not trying to pass off pro-life as a radical idea. you are failing to see the point. the point is that most people have their political views shaped by what they have learned or have been tought or experienced during their life time (mine as well). for a large portion of people, their religious viewpoints and teachings influence their decision making. not that this is a bad thing. all that I am saying is if someone's stance on abortion is grounded in this, why should someone not of that religion be under those beliefs? do i make sense? I am not assuming that pro-life means that you are religious. i am stating that some people are molded by what they learn and for a lot of people that source is religious teachings. maybe not you, but a large amount of people.

[quote900e360cf4]
Hate to breack it to you but just about anyone seriously intrested in a particular subject has "stolen" your advise roll I come from a politically diverse family. I have a brother who is an Anarchist, Anther brother who is a respected (very liberal) democrat in Iowa, A sister who affiliates herself with the Green party, A republican mother and father, and me a conservative republican. I keep myself informed on all sides of an issue especially abortion.[/quote900e360cf4]

i hate to break it to you, but i was kidding. i apologise as sarcasm or joking does not lend itself to this method of communication. Not all people who are interested in one side of an issue a) really read about their side of the issue and what the source if information is and b) look at the other side. my you was meant for all, including myself. ok now no more posts here.

[quotef78fe94b63="theysayjump"]The people in charge, aren't always in the right.[/quotef78fe94b63]

Yeah no kidding. You seem to think that i'm looking for the government to deicide on abortion when in reality thats the opposite of what I want. I want the citizens of each state to be able to make up there own mind on abortion and than vote in there officials accordinglly. If the citizens vote in pro choice officials so be it. If they vote in pro life officials so be it aswell.

[quotef78fe94b63="chillywilly"]
Moving something like drinking age, smoking age, driving age, gun control and things like that are already state controlled, with some federal overrides in those areas.[/quotef78fe94b63]

Abortion used to be state controlled as well but that didn't stop the supreme court.

[quotef78fe94b63="chillywilly"]
In the debate about abortion, we are talking about personal choice and human rights. What you are referring to is elections, which are and always have been based on majority. While I personally think the electoral college needs to be reorganized, issues like abortion should never be based on majority. That is what the constitution is for and protects.[/quotef78fe94b63]

It is also probably the personal choice of the baby to live but that dosen't fucking matter now dose it? Abortion is also not a clear cut constitutional right its open to quite a bit of personal interpretation. It is also a human right to live.

[quotec0c80e68fa="JordanE"]
Yeah no kidding. You seem to think that i'm looking for the government to deicide on abortion when in reality thats the opposite of what I want. I want the citizens of each state to be able to make up there own mind on abortion and than vote in there officials accordinglly. If the citizens vote in pro choice officials so be it. If they vote in pro life officials so be it aswell.
[/quotec0c80e68fa]



why not make abortion a choice for each individual? Like the choice to eat a apple or a pear?

make's no sense to have a state declare wether abortion should be legal or illegal. People will just go to another state or perform illegal abortions and that'll cause more harmed hen it intend's.


think about it. We should have a choice as a individual, wether or not to kill a life being for whatever reason...

[quote8e86cff900="JordanE"]It is also probably the personal choice of the baby to live but that dosen't fucking matter now dose it? Abortion is also not a clear cut constitutional right its open to quite a bit of personal interpretation. It is also a human right to live.[/quote8e86cff900]
So question here... do you support assisted suicide? More curious than anything, but it's semi-related to this discussion.

The life of the baby does matter, but you don't seem to get it.

Let me paint a scenario. Let's say a woman gets pregnant, but it wasn't planned. The guy that got her pregnant is in no position nor does he want to raise the child. Let's assume that state rule is in place and the state this woman lives in bans all abortions (the state could be South Dakota, which will take the ban to the voters during the next general election). Adding another layer to the mix, her conservative parents want nothing to do with their daughter, who got pregnant without being married.

She has no other options and decides to have the child. She applies for welfare because her work skills can't land her a job to pay for housing, food and other necessities.

Now, given this scenario (which is pretty common across this nation), the tax payer burden is now paying for this woman, raising a child she never wanted in the first place. The state has gone after the father after a state health clinic tracked him down and took a DNA test. Soon after the test, the father skipped town and hasn't paid a dime, since he most likely lives and works in another state and with child support being state run, it's harder to extract money from another state.

Not even taking into consideration the emotional struggle this mother and child are put through, it seems the tax payers are ok with funding this woman's sexual irresponsibility. They can sleep at night knowing that their tax dollars have paid to keep an innocent life alive.

Two years go by and said woman is pregnant again, not having a condom on her during her bedding of the cute guy at the bar. A friend was watching her previous child. Nine months go by and she has the child because abortion wasn't an option due to the voter initiative the majority passed, even though none of these people that voted are willing to step in and help her raise the child THEY wanted HER to keep.

We could also throw into this that any sort of contraceptive use and education is discouraged, but since you and I are pretty much on the same page with that, we'll leave that out.

So regardless if abortion is legal or not, the taxpayers still shell out money, some agree with this and others don't. All in the name of saving a child the woman didn't want in the first place.

It all goes back to placing focus on sexual responsibility. The banning of abortion only does one thing it helps people that feel guilty about innocent lives being taken, sleep better at night.

There is nothing moral, IMO, about forcing someone into a decision they don't want. It is against the will and right of that woman to force her to keep a child she doesn't want for any reason. I'll admit that said woman needs to be taught better sexual responsibility, but those against abortion that go to the voting booth never consider that. In fact, most that are religious are against contraception of any kind (read fundementalist). Again, you stated you are for contraception, plus you said your reasons for being against abortion are not religious (rare, but it's possible).

Let me reiterate my personal position again

- I personally do not agree with abortion.

- I do not feel it is my right to vote against or make illegal, the right for someone else to have an abortion.

K let me chime in.

You guys are missing the bigger picture.

Most abortions occur by parents of lower level income and who can't afford or aren't ready to raise children.

Looking at children today I have to say you all are f'n crazy and there's already way too much of you running around. Half of yall don't even have parents that are overly concerned with your well being.

Bottom line is if someone is unfit to have a kid or doesn't have the financial resources to provide for that kid do you want them to have a kid. Does society really want more kids growing up without fathers and drugged out mothers who never wanted the child in the first place. Whats the f'n point of having a kid being born if the parents will not care for that child.

[quote9df76134c4="good2speed"]Whats the f'n point of having a kid being born if the parents will not care for that child.[/quote9df76134c4]
Well said.

[quote068da435b7="chillywilly"]
So question here... do you support assisted suicide? More curious than anything, but it's semi-related to this discussion.[/quote068da435b7]

Though this is a rediculasly irelivent question. No I do not support assisted suicide, why? Becouse I do not support suicide in general.


[quote068da435b7="chillywilly"]
The life of the baby does matter, but you don't seem to get it.

Let me paint a scenario. Let's say a woman gets pregnant, but it wasn't planned. The guy that got her pregnant is in no position nor does he want to raise the child. Let's assume that state rule is in place and the state this woman lives in bans all abortions (the state could be South Dakota, which will take the ban to the voters during the next general election). Adding another layer to the mix, her conservative parents want nothing to do with their daughter, who got pregnant without being married.[/quote068da435b7]

[b068da435b7]ADOPTION![/b068da435b7]

If she has an unplanned pregnancy as a result of consenting sex. Than one of two things happend. She either didn't use birth control or her birth control failed (<highly unlickly). Either way the baby should not have to pay for the mistakes of the mother and father with his or her life.

as far as her mother and father go abstanince is much more of a religious value than a conservative one.


[quote068da435b7="chillywilly"]
She has no other options and decides to have the child. She applies for welfare because her work skills can't land her a job to pay for housing, food and other necessities.

Now, given this scenario (which is pretty common across this nation), the tax payer burden is now paying for this woman, raising a child she never wanted in the first place. The state has gone after the father after a state health clinic tracked him down and took a DNA test. Soon after the test, the father skipped town and hasn't paid a dime, since he most likely lives and works in another state and with child support being state run, it's harder to extract money from another state.

Not even taking into consideration the emotional struggle this mother and child are put through, it seems the tax payers are ok with funding this woman's sexual irresponsibility. They can sleep at night knowing that their tax dollars have paid to keep an innocent life alive.[/quote068da435b7]

I would much rether my tax dollars pay to keep an innocent human baby alive than to pay an abortion doctor to kill an innocent human baby.

This attempt to use the sexual irresponsibility of the mother and father to justify killing an innocent human being is bolth ridiculas and disgusting.

[quote068da435b7="chillywilly"]
Two years go by and said woman is pregnant again, not having a condom on her during her bedding of the cute guy at the bar. A friend was watching her previous child. Nine months go by and she has the child because abortion wasn't an option due to the voter initiative the majority passed, even though none of these people that voted are willing to step in and help her raise the child THEY wanted HER to keep.[/quote068da435b7]

The fact that she can't be bothered to stop off for a condom before she goes and fucks some guy from a bar is yet anther example of why she isn't responsible enuff to be sexuly active in the first place.

It is not our job to rase her kid. Imagine if I were to say unless you agree to take on the job of parenting my toddler by noon tomorrow, I shall execute him, does that seem reasonable to you?

"THEY wanted HER to keep"

Pro life dosen't mean we want to force all mothers to keep there babys. We don't want them to [b068da435b7]KILL[/b068da435b7] there babys. Theres quite a diffrence. Putting the baby up for adoption is a far better alternative.


[quote068da435b7="chillywilly"]
All in the name of saving a child the woman didn't want in the first place.[/quote068da435b7]

The homeless are largely unwanted; may we kill them?

Abortion is a mental disorder.

[quote068da435b7="chillywilly"]
It all goes back to placing focus on sexual responsibility. The banning of abortion only does one thing it helps people that feel guilty about innocent lives being taken, sleep better at night.[/quote068da435b7]

Banning abortion dosen't benefit me it benefits the unborn babies.


[quote068da435b7="chillywilly"]
There is nothing moral, IMO, about forcing someone into a decision they don't want. It is against the will and right of that woman to force her to keep a child she doesn't want for any reason.[/quote068da435b7]

Oh where to fucking begin. Having consensual sex and than aborting the baby that may come as a result of that is about as un-moral as it gets. If you don't want a baby use birth control. If in the highly unlikely event you get pregnant after correctly using birth control put the baby up for adoption.

[quote080a5f6e71="JordanE"]
[quote080a5f6e71="chillywilly"]
It all goes back to placing focus on sexual responsibility. The banning of abortion only does one thing it helps people that feel guilty about innocent lives being taken, sleep better at night.[/quote080a5f6e71]
Banning abortion dosen't benefit me it benefits the unborn babies. [/quote080a5f6e71]

ie that's your opinion. you pretty much proved his point there

wait a tick, at TSJ does the Royal Family have any politcal power whatsoever?

always wondered that

[quoteb9866defc4="JordanE"]Though this is a rediculasly irelivent question. No I do not support assisted suicide, why? Becouse I do not support suicide in general.[/quoteb9866defc4]
Actually, the nature of the question hinders on human rights. It's the basic tennent of allowing people the right to do with their body what they want.

Another scenario. Your parent is in the hospital and dying. Their wish is to not suffer. For months, you watch your parent lose all sorts of control, while a machine or drugs keep them alive. Suffering in constant pain. But because you do not believe in any form of suicide, you let that person suffer, even though it's their wish. Even if that wish is legally documented in a living will.

I know that's a hard question to ask a 16 yr old, but at the same time, why deny that person their wish based on your own personal views, even though you view it as being wrong?

[quoteb9866defc4="JordanE"][bb9866defc4]ADOPTION![/bb9866defc4]

If she has an unplanned pregnancy as a result of consenting sex. Than one of two things happend. She either didn't use birth control or her birth control failed (<highly unlickly). Either way the baby should not have to pay for the mistakes of the mother and father with his or her life.

as far as her mother and father go abstanince is much more of a religious value than a conservative one.[/quoteb9866defc4]
Adoption is an option, but it's not always the choice of the mother. While her having a child was unplanned and unwanted, having her only option as adoption seems limited. I am not against offering adoption, but again, this is the choice of the mother. Are you suggesting that banning abortion would also carry with it the requirement to offer the child up for adoption? Your reply seems to imply that adoption is the only other option if the mother doesn't want to keep the child. Which would leave the mother to live with her responsibility of caring for the child (and the second one as well). Children that live with parents that don't want them are in general, treated differently. A child that lives under these circumstances, while alive in a human form, is not being treated and raised as they should. Nothing can stop bad parenting. But used in this example, it could have been prevented. Or we can simply force adoption if the mother suggests getting an abortion. Her name then goes on a list and when the child is born, it is removed from her and another abortion is averted. Sounds like freedom and human rights avoided as well.

Abstinance is mostly associated with relgious views, but like yourself and your stance on abortion, there are those that are not religious that fully support abstinance.

[quoteb9866defc4="JordanE"]I would much rether my tax dollars pay to keep an innocent human baby alive than to pay an abortion doctor to kill an innocent human baby.

This attempt to use the sexual irresponsibility of the mother and father to justify killing an innocent human being is bolth ridiculas and disgusting.[/quoteb9866defc4]
Ok. What about a parent that continues to have children, then freaks out and drowns them? Then pleads insanity only to get out of custody and get pregnant again? What protection do these children have from a parent that obviously is crazed and shouldn't be having children? Other countries force sterialization to avoid future children. China limits how many children a parent can have. Is there a difference between a living innocent child and one that is still in the first trimester of a pregnancy? Because if you are sickened by abortion because you consider it killing an innocent child, then you should be equally sickened by a child that's already born and being killed by it's parents. Any thoughts on that?

I'm mixed on labeling an unborn child a human being until it's actually born. This is one of those areas where both sides of the discussion are unresolved. I feel that once it leaves the mother's womb, it's a human being.

[quoteb9866defc4="JordanE"]The fact that she can't be bothered to stop off for a condom before she goes and fucks some guy from a bar is yet anther example of why she isn't responsible enuff to be sexuly active in the first place.[/quoteb9866defc4]
Then how do we stop this? Any suggestions?

[quoteb9866defc4="JordanE"]It is not our job to rase her kid. Imagine if I were to say unless you agree to take on the job of parenting my toddler by noon tomorrow, I shall execute him, does that seem reasonable to you?[/quoteb9866defc4]
But you said above that you would rather pay the tax burden for that child to be raised. You voted for a ban and basically took away the decision of that woman, leaving her with two options adoption or keeping the child. Either one of those two options may, at some point, take taxes to help raise the child.

And no, it's not reasonable to me, but there have been parents that have made irrational decisions like that, under unfortunate circumstances.

[quoteb9866defc4="JordanE"]Putting the baby up for adoption is a far better alternative.[/quoteb9866defc4]
I agree. So how do we force adoption if the mother doesn't want to keep or care for the child?

[quoteb9866defc4="JordanE"]The homeless are largely unwanted; may we kill them?[/quoteb9866defc4]
Of course not. What a dumb question.

[quoteb9866defc4="JordanE"]Abortion is a mental disorder.[/quoteb9866defc4]
No. Drowning one's children and then claiming you were told to do it by God is a mental disorder.

[quoteb9866defc4="JordanE"]Banning abortion dosen't benefit me it benefits the unborn babies.[/quoteb9866defc4]
They why the personal concern? Over 2,500 soliders have died in Iraq. Is there a law that prevents that? And if so, why are you not advocating one? A valid question, considering the comparison in your avatar (which I know you didn't create, but your use of it endorses it's wording)

[quoteb9866defc4="JordanE"]Oh where to fucking begin. Having consensual sex and than aborting the baby that may come as a result of that is about un-moral as it gets. If you don't want a baby use birth control. If in the highly unlikely event you get pregnant after correctly using birth control put the baby up for adoption.[/quoteb9866defc4]
For the sake of the discussion and trying to look at this from your viewpoint, both the decision to abort AND forcing a mother to choose against her will are equally immoral.

Just remember this when there is a right that gets taken away from you because a majority group of people feel it's wrong or immoral, don't complain.

My suggestion is when you get to college, to study a lot about humanity, health, freedoms and rights. If at the very least, you'll understand more of the bigger picture and why controlling how people live and their domestic decisions is should not be made illegal because the majority thinks otherwise.

I'm really not trying to come across as ignorant. Trust me, I've seriously looked at both sides of this argument for over 20 years and it always comes back to extending people their rights and freedoms, regardless how immoral something may be to someone else. Is there a difference between a living human being outside the womb (someone that's been born) and a fetus inside the womb? I think there is.

http//dumpalink.com/media/1149240165/Ali_G_Abortion

http//www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=regressive

D

This all started by you asking for 20$! The best way to settle this is by seeing which one of you give me the most money. Whoever paypals me the most money is deemed "correct"! go go go!

Ok. I just sent $100 to email==getyourowndamnmoney@home.comgetyourowndamnmoney@home.com=getyourowndamnmoney@home.comgetyourowndamnmoney@home.com/email

lol

I've made my points. I respect Jordan's views, even if I don't agree with them.

[quotebd88e8f42e="chillywilly"]
Actually, the nature of the question hinders on human rights. It's the basic tennent of allowing people the right to do with their body what they want.

Another scenario. Your parent is in the hospital and dying. Their wish is to not suffer. For months, you watch your parent lose all sorts of control, while a [bbd88e8f42e]machine or drugs keep them alive[/bbd88e8f42e]. Suffering in constant pain. But because you do not believe in any form of suicide, you let that person suffer, even though it's their wish. Even if that wish is legally documented in a living will.

I know that's a hard question to ask a 16 yr old, but at the same time, why deny that person their wish based on your own personal views, even though you view it as being wrong?[/quotebd88e8f42e]

Not taking drugs or using a machine to keep you alive is not "suicide" That would be going naturally you have a legal right to refuse or stop any medical treatment. Not to mention that euthanasia and physician-assisted suicide is illegal everywhere in the United States execept for Oregon where physician-assisted suicide is legal. This isn't just my opinion.



[quotebd88e8f42e="chillywilly"]
Adoption is an option, but it's not always the choice of the mother. While her having a child was unplanned and unwanted, having her only option as adoption seems limited. I am not against offering adoption, but again, this is the choice of the mother. Are you suggesting that banning abortion would also carry with it the requirement to offer the child up for adoption? Your reply seems to imply that adoption is the only other option if the mother doesn't want to keep the child. Which would leave the mother to live with her responsibility of caring for the child (and the second one as well). Children that live with parents that don't want them are in general, treated differently. A child that lives under these circumstances, while alive in a human form, is not being treated and raised as they should. Nothing can stop bad parenting. But used in this example, it could have been prevented. Or we can simply force adoption if the mother suggests getting an abortion. Her name then goes on a list and when the child is born, it is removed from her and another abortion is averted. Sounds like freedom and human rights avoided as well.
[/quotebd88e8f42e]

Wow talk about manipulation. I simply offerd adoption as an option for the mothers who do not want there babies. Everything eles you listed are your words not mine.

[quotebd88e8f42e="chillywilly"]
Ok. What about a parent that continues to have children, then freaks out and drowns them? Then pleads insanity only to get out of custody and get pregnant again? What protection do these children have from a parent that obviously is crazed and shouldn't be having children? Other countries force sterialization to avoid future children. China limits how many children a parent can have. Is there a difference between a living innocent child and one that is still in the first trimester of a pregnancy? Because if you are sickened by abortion because you consider it killing an innocent child, then you should be equally sickened by a child that's already born and being killed by it's parents. Any thoughts on that?

I'm mixed on labeling an unborn child a human being until it's actually born. This is one of those areas where both sides of the discussion are unresolved. I feel that once it leaves the mother's womb, it's a human being.[/quotebd88e8f42e]

That was about the most rediculasly circumstantial attempt at justifying abortion I have seen yet. You are essentially saying that the mother could kill her child later on in life mine as well let her do it now and get it over with.

Are you seriously trying to use the fact that unborn babies could be potential murder victims as a means to jusify abortion?

You and I are bolth potential murder victims. But that didn't stop us from being born.

Weird isn't it? If a baby is removed from the womb and than cut up untill it is dead this is seen as murder (or legally done as partial birth abortion roll ) But if that same baby is cut up untill it is dead while still inside the womb. It is simply seen as a women exercising her "reproductive rights".

[quotebd88e8f42e="chillywilly"]
Then how do we stop this? Any suggestions?[/quotebd88e8f42e]

I mearly stated a personal opinion.


[quotebd88e8f42e="chillywilly"]
But you said above that you would rather pay the tax burden for that child to be raised. You voted for a ban and basically took away the decision of that woman, leaving her with two options adoption or keeping the child. Either one of those two options may, at some point, take taxes to help raise the child.[/quotebd88e8f42e]


There is far more to parenting than just financial responsibility. As I stated earlier I would much rather my tax dollars pay to keep these babies alive than pay an abortion doctors yearly salary.


[quotebd88e8f42e="chillywilly"]
I agree. So how do we force adoption if the mother doesn't want to keep or care for the child?[/quotebd88e8f42e]

Why dose adoption need to be forced? If the mother dosen't want to keep the baby or care for the child. Than she can put the baby up for adoption under her own free will. I see know reason why it would be needed to force it upon her. Its the perfect situation for everyone. The baby gets to live, the mother no longer needs to keep the child, and a couple who may otherwise not be able yo have kids gets a child.



[quotebd88e8f42e="chillywilly"]
Of course not. What a dumb question.[/quotebd88e8f42e]

Exactly!

If a fetus is considerd a human being. What is the diffrence between killing an unwanted fetus and killing an unwanted person? There bolth human beings so there shouldn't be any.

If you believe in human equality (as I hope you do) you should see them bolth as either right or wrong. Since you seem to think its okay to abort an unwanted baby you must either

A. Not believe that a fetus is human
B. Not believe in human equality
or
C. Think it is okay to kill anyone who isn't wanted

See this is why we'll never be able to settle this. I believe that fetuses are human and you don't. Therefore I see the abortion of a fetus as killing a human being and you see it as? I mean odviously a fetus is alive and abortion dose infact kill it so what do you think a fetus is?

[quotebd88e8f42e="chillywilly"]
They why the personal concern? Over 2,500 soliders have died in Iraq. Is there a law that prevents that? And if so, why are you not advocating one? A valid question, considering the comparison in your avatar (which I know you didn't create, but your use of it endorses it's wording)[/quotebd88e8f42e]

Did the 2005 tsunami in Asia effect you directly? No! But that dosen't mean you didn't have a concern for its victims.

[quotebd88e8f42e="chillywilly"]
For the sake of the discussion and trying to look at this from your viewpoint, both the decision to abort AND forcing a mother to choose against her will are equally immoral.[/quotebd88e8f42e]

What if my will was to kill my toddler. But if the government stepped in and didn't allow me to do that would that be immoral of them? No!

[quotebd88e8f42e="chillywilly"]
I'm really not trying to come across as ignorant. Trust me, I've seriously looked at both sides of this argument for over 20 years and it always comes back to extending people their rights and freedoms, regardless how immoral something may be to someone else. Is there a difference between a living human being outside the womb (someone that's been born) and a fetus inside the womb? I think there is.[/quotebd88e8f42e]

Well odviously a human in general develops over time. But the ability to develop is not what makes someone human.

A baby who has been outside of the womb for five minutes isn't much diffrent than a baby who is inside the womb. The umbilical cord is cut but other than that there isn't any real diffrence scientifically.

[quotea45439ff5c="geej86"][quotea45439ff5c="JordanE"]
[quotea45439ff5c="chillywilly"]
It all goes back to placing focus on sexual responsibility. The banning of abortion only does one thing it helps people that feel guilty about innocent lives being taken, sleep better at night.[/quotea45439ff5c]
Banning abortion dosen't benefit me it benefits the unborn babies. [/quotea45439ff5c]

ie that's your opinion. you pretty much proved his point there[/quotea45439ff5c]

Hardly. Stopping abortion wouldn't just allow pro lifers to sleep better at night. It would allow millions of humans to have a chance at life.

With this same logic it could be said that making abortion legal olny helps pro choicers sleep better at night.

But we all know it dose far far more than that. It also couses about 1,000 pounds of biohazard from dismembered human fetuses aday in America alone.

i think Jordan E was sposed to be aborted...that's why he's upset

shock

165 metric tons per year, thats alot! source plz

[quote8be8cf5176="irannaked"]i think Jordan E was sposed to be aborted...that's why he's upset[/quote8be8cf5176]


Is this what you say when you don't know how to respond?

That was the the most ridiculas post in this thread.

[quoteea1d1d9753="geej86"]165 metric tons per year, thats alot! source plz[/quoteea1d1d9753]

This number was listed in a pamphlet I got awhile back. I can't be sure if this number is completely accurate. But with an average of 2,739 abortions in America per day I don't know if it is to far off.

dont they incinerate all that extra stuff?

Jordan,

Addressing a couple of points from your reply then putting this one to bed. It's so obvious you have a lot to learn. I don't want to come off as some fucking "know it all" adult. I don't know it all. I just know how I feel and what's fair to all, not just a selected group of humans. I admire your stance and your passion on this issue, but you have a lot of years left to educate yourself. I'm not saying you are wrong... never did and never will. I'm just saying that you are still young and have a lot of life to experience.

The only same page you and I are on is contraception and that it's ok to use it. You are heads above all of the religious freaks out there that want any form of contraception banned. That's a huge plus, IMO. Oh, and we both are personally against abortion. Can't forget that common ground. Other than that, there's nothing else we agree upon that I can think of.

Which means, there's nothing left to discuss. You feel abortion is the same as someone taking a gun and killing someone. Am I correct in that assumption? If so, then all I was suggesting in my previous post was that if you are against abortion because you feel it's killing someone, and you want it banned, then you must also keep the same stance and support removing other options that people use to kill others. Pretty cut and dried.

I had a lot to respond to, but then realized you really don't understand the concept of human rights. I don't mean that to sound condecending. I mean that as a matter of fact. You are confusing it with protecting human life. And there's nothing wrong with wanting to protect human life. But you can't always stop what other people are going to do. You may feel something like abortion is wrong and want to ban it to stop the unborn from being killed. That's very noble and admirable, but it's not practical. There are people who feel the same exact way you do about alcohol (as I stated in a previous reply) and have exactly the same reasons to want to ban it, but again... not practical. Where does it stop? When abortion is illegal, what's next to ban that bothers you that others do? This is my point about human rights. When you understand the concept, we can have this discussion again. Otherwise, if we keep continue this now, we'll just be going in circles.

Besides, as I stated before, if abortion is made illegal, it doesn't stop the abortions... maybe slow them down, but that's about it. But as long as it's illegal and your tax dollars aren't paying an doctor to perform abortions, then your cause was worth it... at least to yourself and any unborn babies that were not legally aborted.

That's all I have. Thanks for the discussion.

The only thing I can add to this is why is someone charged with a double murder if he kills a woman who is pregnant....

Thanks for bringing this up.....

And you are charged with double murder because you stop her life and the life inside of her. That is 2 LIVING things, so you get TWO murder charges.

[quote987bfabf61="box86rowh"]The only thing I can add to this is why is someone charged with a double murder if he kills a woman who is pregnant....[/quote987bfabf61]
lol, for um...bringing this ancient topic back. And to answer your question...why the hell do you think? BECAUSE, when a woman is pregnant...there's the woman...plus the BABY inside of her...which is LIVING.

Edit LOL! TTGP said the same thing. P

Dear Lord,
Shoot me now. Thanks.

Andrew

I think what box meant is why is it okay for a doctor to abort a baby and its not considered murder but if someone kills a woman thats pregnant all of a sudden it is considered murder, which I agree is bullshit. How can they allow doctors to kill something and say its OK, but if its a killer then they get charged. Don't get me wrong I think that its good that they charge someone with double murder in a case like this, but it contradicts the whole abortion thing.

[quote0f81374b65="Jeremiah1218"]I think what box meant is why is it okay for a doctor to abort a baby and its not considered murder but if someone kills a woman thats pregnant all of a sudden it is considered murder, which I agree is bullshit. How can they allow doctors to kill something and say its OK, but if its a killer then they get charged. Don't get me wrong I think that its good that they charge someone with double murder in a case like this, but it contradicts the whole abortion thing.[/quote0f81374b65]
Yes, that is what I meant....seems like a double standard...

I thought this topic was about borrowing 20 bucks?

[quote2f58010f32="manOFice"]I thought this topic was about borrowing 20 bucks?[/quote2f58010f32]
You know...I was wondering the same thing.
I don't know how it got into such a heated debate.

The law everyone is refering to is the "Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

While it for most part implies that the unborn are human since the offender can be charged with murder which is a crime that by definition and can olny be committed to another human.

It isn't the best argument to make when debating the legitimacy of [i60d83eb7a8]Roe vs. Wade[/i60d83eb7a8], since it is a fairly new law. It was instituted on aprill 1st 2004 by President Bush.

For the time being though since the unborn can be legally considerd murder victims they should technically be considerd human beings by the government untill that law is removed.

While the unborn are legally thought of as human beings they have to be awarded the same personal liberties and human rights provided by the constitution as any other US citizen, which contains a right to live, therfore making the unconsented euthanization of such individual (ie abortion) a crime and in some states punishable by death.

[quotec63f766746="manOFice"]I thought this topic was about borrowing 20 bucks?[/quotec63f766746]

Yes, it was. However, it changed course in some ways for the better over a year ago.