Abortion......Wrong Or Right?

Personally i think abortion should be allowed and women should have the right to choose.

oh boy.. this thread wont be pretty..

I am for it. If a parent does not want a child, it is in the best interest of everyone for her to not give birth. Children should be wanted. They require care and love.. if this parent doesn't feel up to that challenge, or simply cant afford the financial pressures that a child will bring, abortion is the best solution.

Now go ahead and bash my opinion.

If a woman doesn't want children, get a hysterectomy; abortion should not be used as a form of birth control. If you don't want the child, carry to term and give the baby up for adoption.

But that's just MY opinion. While I DO have an issue with MEN who run the government making laws controlling my body, the moment I carry a life within my womb, it is no longer just MY body.

[quote0d7f7353b8="jadem"]If a woman doesn't want children, get a hysterectomy; abortion should not be used as a form of birth control. If you don't want the child, carry to term and give the baby up for adoption.

[/quote0d7f7353b8]

adoption works too.. except then you have to go your entire life knowing you have a son or daughter that you dont even know.. but yeah, as you said.. its the womans body, she should be free to make whatever decision she pleases.

even though i am a guy, i agree with jadem. women should have the right to control what goes on with their body. why raise a child that is unwanted. i would like to see the opposing opinion in this thread. i am sure some christian will say something like, "you shouldnt be having premarital sex to begin with so you should have to live with the sin you commited." i have a feeling this will reach a few pages.

although i do belive that it should be allowed and every woman has the right to choose, a woman (or man) should be responsible when it comes to having unprotected sex if they dont want or cant take care of a child.

but my wife and i both agree that it should not be used as birth control..She said there was a girl at her highschool that had 9 abortions, now that kinda shit is just wrong. Thats using it as birth control.

yea a girl from back in high school had a baby and i feel sorry for it. the mom is my age and still parties and stuff even though she has a baby. its unbelievable.

Seriously though, imagine how miserable that girl and her children woul dall be?

I have no problem with a woman having the right to choose. The choice is extremely difficult to make and any woman who decides to go through with an abortion does suffer for it with intense emotional pain. I know a couple of women who have had abortions and they cried about them for a long time afterward. It was very sad to see them in that state. The other risks that a woman takes are the possibility of being sterile after the procedure, which is a heavy price to pay.

If your belief that abortion is wrong stems is religious in nature, then that is cool. Don't have an abortion then. The choice is still yours. Let the people who don't follow the same dogma make their decisions for themselves.

I don't believe that abortion should be used as birth control though. That is kind of wrong. There are many other methods to prevent oneself from becoming pregnant.

[quoted4034178cd="Jake"]I don't believe that abortion should be used as birth control though. That is kind of wrong. There are many other methods to prevent oneself from becoming pregnant.[/quoted4034178cd]

I agree with that 100%.


As for the religion comment...I consider myself a Christian, but I use birth control as a means to controlling cramps and such (I would miss 3 days out of a month of work if it wasn't for BC). It really irritates me to go to Planned Parenthood (PP) to get my bc only to have people standing outside as if I were going in there to have an abortion.

I'm sorry people, if healthcare in this country wasn't so messed up, I could have gone to a regular Dr but as it was, I didn't have health insurance and was left with one choice PP.

[quote065d6154b7="tracemhunter"]even though i am a guy, i agree with jadem. women should have the right to control what goes on with their body. why raise a child that is unwanted. i would like to see the opposing opinion in this thread. i am sure some christian will say something like, "you shouldnt be having premarital sex to begin with so you should have to live with the sin you commited." [/quote065d6154b7]

Like, ohmigosh!!!11! You took the wordz right out of my mouth! Wow! Us silly uneducated Christians...






roll





My personal beliefs are against abortion. If there is an unplanned pregnancy put it up for adoption. Take the child and leave it at a hospital if you must (in PA this is 100% legal), but at least give it a chance. Now I agree adoption is not a perfect option but it's the best available. In my opinion.

As others have said use preventative methods to avoid an unwanted pregnancy. This is not exactly the same case but my husband and I have agreed that for the time being, I will use birth control. We are likely going to take a few years to get to know each other more fully and prepare for our future children.

I'd have to say case by case. I defiantly agree that abortion should not be a form of birth control because that isn't controlling the birth, it is eliminating it.

However, in rape situations, I am quite in favor of potential abortions because of the unwanted forced situation. While unfair to the potential child, I feel it is equally unfair to the mother.

I also feel that there is a major problem with the youth in america that is making abortion such a large issue. I feel that a very large portion of younger females (say 26 and under) are a LOT more... loose with the goose than women have ever been. And women who are that irresponsible to go getting pregnant all willy nilly are probably the larger majority of the ones getting abortions.

Pill + Condom + Common Sense

While I personally think abortion is the wrong decision I wont tell anyone what to do. I put legal because everyone needs to decide on their own.

Even though I myself am not religious, I think abortion is morally wrong and I would never encourage anybody to have one. I still think that a woman should have the right to choose, however. Just because I am against it does not give me the right to deny it to everybody else. I say case by case, because if a woman is raped and becomes pregnant but does not want the child, she should have the choice, but it should NOT in any circumstance be used solely as a form of birth control.

For all of the people who say "just put it up for adoption," where do you expect all of these babies to go? There is already a problem in this country where people only want to adopt blonde, blue-eyed, white babies. There are also groups that are against people adopting babies of different races. I'm not baiting an argument, I'm just curious.

[quote359d98db2f="Fugger"]I'd have to say case by case. I defiantly agree that abortion should not be a form of birth control because that isn't controlling the birth, it is eliminating it.

However, in rape situations, I am quite in favor of potential abortions because of the unwanted forced situation. While unfair to the potential child, I feel it is equally unfair to the mother.

I also feel that there is a major problem with the youth in america that is making abortion such a large issue. I feel that a very large portion of younger females (say 26 and under) are a LOT more... loose with the goose than women have ever been. And women who are that irresponsible to go getting pregnant all willy nilly are probably the larger majority of the ones getting abortions.

Pill + Condom + Common Sense[/quote359d98db2f]

I like Fugger's stance, especially with the rape situations. I don't know if this is the law right now, but if it isn't (feel free to correct me) this is how I think it should be There should be an allowed abortion within the first month (no further than the first trimester) and then after that an abortion should be illegal. Sure, women should have a choice, but there comes a point where the child's well-being comes into play and I think the first month/trimester (somewhere in there) gives enough time for the woman to decide.

[quote143d655e2d="johnjimjones"]
There should be an allowed abortion within the first month (no further than the first trimester) and then after that an abortion should be illegal. Sure, women should have a choice, but there comes a point where the child's well-being comes into play and I think the first month/trimester (somewhere in there) gives enough time for the woman to decide.[/quote143d655e2d]

Please keep in mind that a lot of women do not necessarily find out that they are pregnant until after the first month...

Ah, good point, that's why I included first trimester. So I guess it would be the first trimester, rather than first month.

I am a christian...and my opinion is its between the woman and God period. My mother had an abortion before and IMO it was a valid reason I mean that means there is a bro or sis i dont have...but @ that time my mom could barely take care of me and my dad is a loser and wasnt there. but anyway its all about choice...but it shouldnt be used as a Birth Control method it should be used only in emergencies I do personally know some girls that have been to the "clinic" 4-5 times and this was during the course 3yrs so that IMO is just wrong and if a girl can do that she really has no business being a mother cuz it is heartless. My last point is if ur not married dont have sex but i realize that that is way idealistic so at least use a rubber or the pill if u dont want kids...if ur going around "rawdog" w/o a care all the time then they take what they get but then again ppl w/ the mantality shouldnt be having children IMO but what can I say im just a guy.

[quote7fb5a9b3a3="nicd.01"]For all of the people who say "just put it up for adoption," where do you expect all of these babies to go? There is already a problem in this country where people only want to adopt blonde, blue-eyed, white babies. There are also groups that are against people adopting babies of different races. I'm not baiting an argument, I'm just curious.[/quote7fb5a9b3a3]

I do agree with you, which is why I said "adoption is not a perfect option". While I can understand if couples want their child to look like them, it just makes those who look for the children most in need all the more special. It's taking time but slowly, very slowly, the statistics are rising regarding interracial adoption.

[quote990f8fefaa="mr_black"]...but it shouldnt be used as a Birth Control method it should be used only in emergencies I do personally know some girls that have been to the "clinic" 4-5 times and this was during the course 3yrs so that IMO is just wrong and if a girl can do that she really has no business being a mother cuz it is heartless... [/quote990f8fefaa]

Yeah, if you are getting more than one abortion (assuming that it isnt rape) that's just wrong and that is not (I think) is what abortion is for (is for last resort).

murder

This was a bad idea, I hope it gets locked soon

[quotef0a3de51ae="johnjimjones"][quotef0a3de51ae="mr_black"]...but it shouldnt be used as a Birth Control method it should be used only in emergencies I do personally know some girls that have been to the "clinic" 4-5 times and this was during the course 3yrs so that IMO is just wrong and if a girl can do that she really has no business being a mother cuz it is heartless... [/quotef0a3de51ae]

Yeah, if you are getting more than one abortion (assuming that it isnt rape) that's just wrong and that is not (I think) is what abortion is for (is for last resort).[/quotef0a3de51ae]

If you get raped twice in your life your either really stupid or the most unlucky person on earth.

[quote1d6cee1993="hyperboarder"]This was a bad idea, I hope it gets locked soon[/quote1d6cee1993]

Everyone is acting pretty mature so I don't see a reason to lock it.

[quote4ae9c00376="JOSHBOX"][quote4ae9c00376="johnjimjones"][quote4ae9c00376="mr_black"]...but it shouldnt be used as a Birth Control method it should be used only in emergencies I do personally know some girls that have been to the "clinic" 4-5 times and this was during the course 3yrs so that IMO is just wrong and if a girl can do that she really has no business being a mother cuz it is heartless... [/quote4ae9c00376]

Yeah, if you are getting more than one abortion (assuming that it isnt rape) that's just wrong and that is not (I think) is what abortion is for (is for last resort).[/quote4ae9c00376]

If you get raped twice in your life your either really stupid or the most unlucky person on earth.[/quote4ae9c00376]

Or you are 14 and your father is a sick bastard. She should just leave though, right? Someone under 18 would be lucky to get an abortion anway thanks to the bullshit parental notification laws, mandatory counselling, forced delays, etc. Especially in Kentucky.

use a condom or pull out, DUMBASS (not referring to anyone, just a comment)

It's not just your body, it's the baby's too. So unless somehow you can get the baby's vote, it's not your decision. If someone has a toddler and they decided that they can't support it can they have it killed? Even in the first trimester, the baby is alive.

Christians aren't against abortions just because God said so. Abortions aren't even specifically mentioned, although there are reasons in there against them.

Im case by case, because in cases like rape i think its fine, but i dont think its ok for people to use it as a type of birth control, ie "i forgot to use a condom, meh, ill just get an abortion". I know the average person doesnt think like that and abortions arent fun but there are some people that do.

[quotedcd83a9994="drummer_kew_03"]It's not just your body, it's the baby's too. So unless somehow you can get the baby's vote, it's not your decision. If someone has a toddler and they decided that they can't support it can they have it killed? Even in the first trimester, the baby is alive.

Christians aren't against abortions just because God said so. Abortions aren't even specifically mentioned, although there are reasons in there against them.[/quotedcd83a9994]

Man, whatever. The reason kids are so fucked up these days is because of shitty parents. I would rather these potential shitty parents get an abortion than try to raise a kid.

I just don't understand how someone in their right mind can delude themselves into thinking that it's not murder. For a minute, forget about the possible reasons for getting one. How is it not murder?

[quote250e23a59c="theysayjump"]Personally i think abortion should be allowed and [b250e23a59c]women should have the right to choose.[/b250e23a59c][/quote250e23a59c]

........

Too bad the babies inside can't choose.

It's wrong. They're alive in there and we're just killing them.


Have you heard of the abortions where they deliver the baby and then they jam scissors in the back of the baby's head WHEN IT'S OUT OF THE WOMB and they suck the baby's brains out? It's called partial birth abortion and it makes me want to throw up.

http//www.lifesite.net/abortiontypes/

[quote10ae21b09d="J4320"][quote10ae21b09d="theysayjump"]Personally i think abortion should be allowed and [b10ae21b09d]women should have the right to choose.[/b10ae21b09d][/quote10ae21b09d]

........

Too bad the babies inside can't choose.

It's wrong. They're alive in there and we're just killing them.


Have you heard of the abortions where they deliver the baby and then they jam scissors in the back of the baby's head WHEN IT'S OUT OF THE WOMB and they suck the baby's brains out? It's called partial birth abortion and it makes me want to throw up.

http//www.lifesite.net/abortiontypes/[/quote10ae21b09d]They only do partial birth if the mother is going to die i thought?

[quote280c075dc3="J4320"][quote280c075dc3="theysayjump"]Personally i think abortion should be allowed and [b280c075dc3]women should have the right to choose.[/b280c075dc3][/quote280c075dc3]

........

Too bad the babies inside can't choose.

It's wrong. They're alive in there and we're just killing them.


Have you heard of the abortions where they deliver the baby and then they jam scissors in the back of the baby's head WHEN IT'S OUT OF THE WOMB and they suck the baby's brains out? It's called partial birth abortion and it makes me want to throw up.

http//www.lifesite.net/abortiontypes/[/quote280c075dc3]

shockoh god, I almost wish I didn't read that. I specially liked the part about the decapitation of the fetus roll

Abortion is wrong. Its morally wrong.. I've read an article that showed a group of women wearing t-shirts saying "I've had an abortion!"

When the reporter of the article questioned the group, they responded that they were proud to have abortions, 'Women's Rights' and such.. So your typical Neo-Feminist BS..

Sorry ladies if that offended you.. But I think its morally wrong (no, I'm not a white conservative christian or a Republican), but I still believe its wrong to conceive a child then have a doctor kill the baby.. Use a condom, take birth control.. Be smart.

As for cases of rape.. Take care of it BEFORE the baby begins to develop.. You have time, don't just sit around and kill it later.

[quotef42a1e1316]I have no problem with a woman having the right to choose. [bf42a1e1316]The choice is extremely difficult to make and any woman who decides to go through with an abortion does suffer for it with intense emotional pain.[/bf42a1e1316] I know a couple of women who have had abortions and they cried about them for a long time afterward. It was very sad to see them in that state. The other risks that a woman takes are the possibility of being sterile after the procedure, which is a heavy price to pay.[/quotef42a1e1316]

Not necessarily... The group of women I mentioned in the article felt the opposite.. When they had the abortion (both during and after) felt relieved where as (before) they said they felt miserable..

Honestly, I believe they never felt miserable.. They enjoy the concept of abortion for some strange sick reason ?

[quote3bce432c39="johnjimjones"][quote3bce432c39="J4320"][quote3bce432c39="theysayjump"]Personally i think abortion should be allowed and [b3bce432c39]women should have the right to choose.[/b3bce432c39][/quote3bce432c39]

........

Too bad the babies inside can't choose.

It's wrong. They're alive in there and we're just killing them.


Have you heard of the abortions where they deliver the baby and then they jam scissors in the back of the baby's head WHEN IT'S OUT OF THE WOMB and they suck the baby's brains out? It's called partial birth abortion and it makes me want to throw up.

http//www.lifesite.net/abortiontypes/[/quote3bce432c39]

shockoh god, I almost wish I didn't read that. I specially liked the part about the decapitation of the fetus roll[/quote3bce432c39]

Is that sarcasm I sense?

This is serious.

These baby's are getting killed OUT of the womb and people are thinking that it's alright. It's STILL not right even if they're developing in the womb. They are still living creatures inside of the womb and it's extremely selfish of a woman to want to get an abortion.

Look at these pictures of what they do on some of these operations ---->

liWARNING, THESE IMAGES ARE PRETTY GRUSOMEli

They are pictures of babies after the partial abortions they do(they aren't too bad in my opinion because I'm pretty use to seeing gruesome things but it's kind of disturbing how these babies are treated).

http//www.greaterthings.com/JeanKellySharp/Abortion/images/partial_birth.gif

http//www.precious-life.com/images/DavidHead.jpg

http//www.vanderbilt.edu/SFL/abortion_photos.htm

Now how can anyone say that this is right?

In partial abortions they stick scissors in the back of the baby's head and cut open the skull and then they suck out the brain so they can have the cells from it for research and such. Do you think these babies feel no pain? Who are we to determine if a living baby can live or not? We are KILLING them - even in the womb.

[quote71af3e6750="\h3x"]Abortion is wrong. Its morally wrong.. I've read an article that showed a group of women wearing t-shirts saying "I've had an abortion!"

When the reporter of the article questioned the group, they responded that they were proud to have abortions, 'Women's Rights' and such.. So your typical Neo-Feminist BS..

Sorry ladies if that offended you.. But I think its morally wrong (no, I'm not a white conservative christian or a Republican), but I still believe its wrong to conceive a child then have a doctor kill the baby.. Use a condom, take birth control.. Be smart.

As for cases of rape.. Take care of it BEFORE the baby begins to develop.. You have time, don't just sit around and kill it later.

[quote71af3e6750]I have no problem with a woman having the right to choose. [b71af3e6750]The choice is extremely difficult to make and any woman who decides to go through with an abortion does suffer for it with intense emotional pain.[/b71af3e6750] I know a couple of women who have had abortions and they cried about them for a long time afterward. It was very sad to see them in that state. The other risks that a woman takes are the possibility of being sterile after the procedure, which is a heavy price to pay.[/quote71af3e6750]

Not necessarily... The group of women I mentioned in the article felt the opposite.. When they had the abortion (both during and after) felt relieved where as (before) they said they felt miserable..

Honestly, I believe they never felt miserable.. They enjoy the concept of abortion for some strange sick reason ?[/quote71af3e6750]
The women in that article are a small, sick, twister MINORITY.

[quote5052491fce="J4320"]Who are we to determine if a living baby can live or not? We are KILLING them - even in the womb.[/quote5052491fce]

as much as i agree with you about partial birth abortions, i cant agree with the above statement.

who are the government to determine if a baby can live or not? why is it ok for the government to decide whats OK and what isnt when it comes to our babies, children, child etc, but its not OK for us to decide?

would you want the government coming into your house and telling you where the furniture should go, when to clean up, who is allowed in the house, what it looks etc?

if not, then why would you want the government to decide whether you should be allowed to have an abortion or not?

[quoteee20d246af="theysayjump"][quoteee20d246af="J4320"]Who are we to determine if a living baby can live or not? We are KILLING them - even in the womb.[/quoteee20d246af]

as much as i agree with you about partial birth abortions, i cant agree with the above statement.

who are the government to determine if a baby can live or not? why is it ok for the government to decide whats OK and what isnt when it comes to our babies, children, child etc, but its not OK for us to decide?

would you want the government coming into your house and telling you where the furniture should go, when to clean up, who is allowed in the house, what it looks etc?

if not, then why would you want the government to decide whether you should be allowed to have an abortion or not?[/quoteee20d246af]

I never even mentioned the government. All I'm saying is that abortion is wrong and it should be stopped. What I meant by that statement you quoted was mankind in general.

[quoteee20d246af="J4320"]Who are [bee20d246af]we[/bee20d246af] to determine if a living baby can live or not? We are KILLING them - even in the womb.[/quoteee20d246af]

we = mankind

What gives us justification to just kill innocent babies like that?

There are other ways of preventing child birth such as condoms and birth control and such. But yes, I know those can fail sometimes and girls can end up with unexpected pregnancy. Why not have the baby and give it up for adoption? Why not let a couple that can't have kids who have always wanted a baby have one?

[quote0a80ce98cd]why is it ok for the government to decide whats OK and what isnt when it comes to our babies, children, child etc, but its not OK for us to decide?[/quote0a80ce98cd]

The government NEEDS to step in to make some decisions for us... No offense jump, but you sound like an anarchist to me (No governmental power whatsoever)

[quote0a80ce98cd]The women in that article are a small, sick, twister MINORITY.[/quote0a80ce98cd]

Regardless... Abortion is murder. Theres no nicer way of putting it. If you don't want to have a baby, USE A CONDOM. TAKE BIRTH CONTROL PILLS. GET YOUR TUBES TIED.

If you got raped, go to a hospital immediately and get help. Take care of the problem before a baby starts to develop and you have to kill it. They'll take care of the fertilized egg and provide you with therapists and counselors to help you with your ordeal. Its all about COMMON SENSE. Just cause you lack it, doesn't make it right to take a life.

[quote59edb47c40="J4320"][quote59edb47c40="theysayjump"][quote59edb47c40="J4320"]Who are we to determine if a living baby can live or not? We are KILLING them - even in the womb.[/quote59edb47c40]

as much as i agree with you about partial birth abortions, i cant agree with the above statement.

who are the government to determine if a baby can live or not? why is it ok for the government to decide whats OK and what isnt when it comes to our babies, children, child etc, but its not OK for us to decide?

would you want the government coming into your house and telling you where the furniture should go, when to clean up, who is allowed in the house, what it looks etc?

if not, then why would you want the government to decide whether you should be allowed to have an abortion or not?[/quote59edb47c40]

I never even mentioned the government. All I'm saying is that abortion is wrong and it should be stopped. What I meant by that statement you quoted was mankind in general.

[quote59edb47c40="J4320"]Who are [b59edb47c40]we[/b59edb47c40] to determine if a living baby can live or not? We are KILLING them - even in the womb.[/quote59edb47c40]

we = mankind

What gives us justification to just kill innocent babies like that?

There are other ways of preventing child birth such as condoms and birth control and such. But yes, I know those can fail sometimes and girls can end up with unexpected pregnancy. Why not have the baby and give it up for adoption? Why not let a couple that can't have kids who have always wanted a baby have one?[/quote59edb47c40]

ok my bad, when you said we i thought you mean regular people.

anyway, just because one person believes it is wrong, why should their view be forced on everyone else? (i.e you saying it should be stopped because you think it is wrong). if someone belives it is the right thing to do, then they should have the choice to make that decision.

its the same with gay marraige. Bush believes it is wrong so he doesnt allow it to be legal. Imagine if someone was elected president who thoguht that hetrosexual couples shouldnt be allowed to marry. should they be allowed to make that decision for everyone in the country based on what they belive is right? no it should be up to the individual to decide how to live their life.

governments are SUPPOSED to represent the people of its country, the people who support it, the people who pay for them to live in huge fuckin houses and drive 12 SUV's at the same time, so the people should have the right to make their own decisions that effect themselves, and have nothing to do with everyone else in the country.

[quote59edb47c40="\h3x"]The government NEEDS to step in to make some decisions for us... No offense jump, but you sound like an anarchist to me (No governmental power whatsoever).[/quote59edb47c40]

actually, im an anarchistic pacifist with a penchant for non-violent civil disobedience.

Quoted for truth

[quote59edb47c40="Radiohead wrote"]Bring down the government
They dont, they dont speak for us.[/quote59edb47c40]

[quoteb109eaccd8="theysayjump"][quoteb109eaccd8="J4320"]Who are we to determine if a living baby can live or not? We are KILLING them - even in the womb.[/quoteb109eaccd8]
who are the government to determine if a baby can live or not? why is it ok for the government to decide whats OK and what isnt when it comes to our babies, children, child etc, but its not OK for us to decide?
[/quoteb109eaccd8]


Are you serious? That's what a government is for, to make laws. They say it's wrong to murder people, and nobody complains about that. What's different about a baby in the womb?

[quote71d163654f="drummer_kew_03"][quote71d163654f="theysayjump"][quote71d163654f="J4320"]Who are we to determine if a living baby can live or not? We are KILLING them - even in the womb.[/quote71d163654f]
who are the government to determine if a baby can live or not? why is it ok for the government to decide whats OK and what isnt when it comes to our babies, children, child etc, but its not OK for us to decide?
[/quote71d163654f]


Are you serious? That's what a government is for, to make laws. They say it's wrong to murder people, and nobody complains about that. What's different about a baby in the womb?[/quote71d163654f]

they say its wrong to murder people, yet they murder people on death row and some of the time the people are innocent (just like the babies are).

do you follow the government blindly, do as they say, take their word as the gospel and denounce anyone who disagrees with them or their decision?

it is said that the greatest form of patriotism is to question your government/law makers/authorotative figures etc.

the government make laws based on what THEY think the laws should be, not what the people think. if that was the case, they would take a vote on major issues and let the people decide what is right and what is not.

That's what our government is though, it's not a democracy, it's a republic. We elect them, they make laws. But back on topic, how is abortion not murder?

i didnt say it wasnt.

So, if it's not murder then why is it okay? And for people who don't think it's murder, why not?

To touch on what you said earlier i can't make up my mind on the death penalty. Maybe it's okay only in cases where it's a terrible crime, it is completely proven, and the person admitted it. I'm still not sure though.

Death Penalty is a touchy subject as well...

I consider it to be all-right if AND ONLY IF the crime commited was of an atrocity.

For example, the guy slit someones throat, tore up his limbs, removed his intestines and hung him on a tree with them (thats a good example of an atrocity)

that or mass killings in any form (a guy shot and killed 10-20 people).

But if they guy simply shot a person and killed them (give him life in prison where he'll raped in the ass for the rest of his life), whereas a guy who commited an atrocity (deserves to suffer the pain of electrocution)

Why do I say this? Well if he merely shot and killed a guy.. the death is almost instant, where as a brutal atrocity such as what I mentioned above is a slow, horrible and painful death.

To sum it up, Life for a few quick, mostly clean kills.. Death for a horrendous murder, or multiple murders of any form.

[quote37b931ecbc="drummer_kew_03"]So, if it's not murder then why is it okay? And for people who don't think it's murder, why not?

To touch on what you said earlier i can't make up my mind on the death penalty. Maybe it's okay only in cases where it's a terrible crime, it is completely proven, and the person admitted it. I'm still not sure though.[/quote37b931ecbc]

im guessing that you meant to say " if it IS murder, then why is it okay?"

there is a difference between just plain murder and abortion. abortion is an option. its there for a reason but when people abuse it, thats just wrong.

its not there as a "get out of jail free card". its a last resort and thats how it should be used.

and as for the death penalty issue

http//forum.freeipodguide.com/viewtopic.php?t=19547

What other controversial issues have we yet to discuss? wink

thats what ive been trying to think of.......ive made a few and there was one that i thought of but cant remember.

i did just think of another one, maybe 2 though.

there are some that there is just no point in making (certain political points) because its just a flame-fest, and i dont think anyone wears their flame vests so theres no point.

just thought of another one too D

[quote0e83c08509="theysayjump"][quote0e83c08509="J4320"][quote0e83c08509="theysayjump"][quote0e83c08509="J4320"]Who are we to determine if a living baby can live or not? We are KILLING them - even in the womb.[/quote0e83c08509]

as much as i agree with you about partial birth abortions, i cant agree with the above statement.

who are the government to determine if a baby can live or not? why is it ok for the government to decide whats OK and what isnt when it comes to our babies, children, child etc, but its not OK for us to decide?

would you want the government coming into your house and telling you where the furniture should go, when to clean up, who is allowed in the house, what it looks etc?

if not, then why would you want the government to decide whether you should be allowed to have an abortion or not?[/quote0e83c08509]

I never even mentioned the government. All I'm saying is that abortion is wrong and it should be stopped. What I meant by that statement you quoted was mankind in general.

[quote0e83c08509="J4320"]Who are [b0e83c08509]we[/b0e83c08509] to determine if a living baby can live or not? We are KILLING them - even in the womb.[/quote0e83c08509]

we = mankind

What gives us justification to just kill innocent babies like that?

There are other ways of preventing child birth such as condoms and birth control and such. But yes, I know those can fail sometimes and girls can end up with unexpected pregnancy. Why not have the baby and give it up for adoption? Why not let a couple that can't have kids who have always wanted a baby have one?[/quote0e83c08509]

ok my bad, when you said we i thought you mean regular people.
[b0e83c08509]
anyway, just because one person believes it is wrong, why should their view be forced on everyone else? (i.e you saying it should be stopped because you think it is wrong). if someone belives it is the right thing to do, then they should have the choice to make that decision.[/b0e83c08509]

its the same with gay marraige. Bush believes it is wrong so he doesnt allow it to be legal. Imagine if someone was elected president who thoguht that hetrosexual couples shouldnt be allowed to marry. should they be allowed to make that decision for everyone in the country based on what they belive is right? no it should be up to the individual to decide how to live their life.

governments are SUPPOSED to represent the people of its country, the people who support it, the people who pay for them to live in huge fuckin houses and drive 12 SUV's at the same time, so the people should have the right to make their own decisions that effect themselves, and have nothing to do with everyone else in the country.[/quote0e83c08509]

A lot of people think that it's wrong. I'm not the only one. So you're basically saying that if someone stands up against all of these killings in these abortions yet more people want to have abortions than people who don't, it's okay? Majority rules doesn't always settle our problems.



It's the popular thing because woman want to have the right to be able to not have to give birth. But they already have that right. Don't have sex or use a condom or birth control.

[quote0e83c08509]if someone belives it is the right thing to do, then they should have the choice to make that decision.[/quote0e83c08509]

Think about that statement for a while there TSJ. wink

That's really not true at all. So if someone believes that the right thing to do for himself is to go kill someone who's been bothering him it's okay? Because that's basically what abortionists are doing.

I think women should totally have the option of having an abortion.

Once a child arrives in a woman's life, her whole life changes. Her whole life starts revolving around the child and it's care. She might have other plans before but they are all put aside because of the baby. I mean, a baby is a powerful influence in her life and changes it completely around.

In modern times, women have plans before they settle down and have babies. She might want a career started or see if she might make it as an artist or a writer. So in that case the baby completely blows that away.

As for people who say it's murder, COME ON! Natural abortions happen all the time in the mother's womb - probably hundreds of natural abortions occur for one good birth (though I'm not sure about the stats). Something gets screwed up and the whole birth process aborts naturally. You wouldn't want a messed up baby coming out. I don't see why you'd want a baby coming out that messes up the mother's life.

I think it's important to have babies at the right time with the right person. Mistakes happen and if we have the option of rolling back the mistake then it should be taken.

Why is it that people only care about human life before it comes out of the womb and afterward leave it to fend for itself?

What about the destruction of other forms of life (animals, plants, etc)?

Why is only human life considered sacred and nothing else? All other life forms on our planet are integral to our continued existence here, yet we continually wipe them off the planet while bleating about the evils of abortion.

What about the killing of people using the act of war?

If we're going to preach on about the sanctity of life, we should be taking into account the sanctity of ALL life, not just ourselves. We are nothing without all of the other life forms surrounding us.

[quote30b3245302="J4320"][quote30b3245302="theysayjump"][quote30b3245302="J4320"][quote30b3245302="theysayjump"][quote30b3245302="J4320"]Who are we to determine if a living baby can live or not? We are KILLING them - even in the womb.[/quote30b3245302]

as much as i agree with you about partial birth abortions, i cant agree with the above statement.

who are the government to determine if a baby can live or not? why is it ok for the government to decide whats OK and what isnt when it comes to our babies, children, child etc, but its not OK for us to decide?

would you want the government coming into your house and telling you where the furniture should go, when to clean up, who is allowed in the house, what it looks etc?

if not, then why would you want the government to decide whether you should be allowed to have an abortion or not?[/quote30b3245302]

I never even mentioned the government. All I'm saying is that abortion is wrong and it should be stopped. What I meant by that statement you quoted was mankind in general.

[quote30b3245302="J4320"]Who are [b30b3245302]we[/b30b3245302] to determine if a living baby can live or not? We are KILLING them - even in the womb.[/quote30b3245302]

we = mankind

What gives us justification to just kill innocent babies like that?

There are other ways of preventing child birth such as condoms and birth control and such. But yes, I know those can fail sometimes and girls can end up with unexpected pregnancy. Why not have the baby and give it up for adoption? Why not let a couple that can't have kids who have always wanted a baby have one?[/quote30b3245302]

ok my bad, when you said we i thought you mean regular people.
[b30b3245302]
anyway, just because one person believes it is wrong, why should their view be forced on everyone else? (i.e you saying it should be stopped because you think it is wrong). if someone belives it is the right thing to do, then they should have the choice to make that decision.[/b30b3245302]

its the same with gay marraige. Bush believes it is wrong so he doesnt allow it to be legal. Imagine if someone was elected president who thoguht that hetrosexual couples shouldnt be allowed to marry. should they be allowed to make that decision for everyone in the country based on what they belive is right? no it should be up to the individual to decide how to live their life.

governments are SUPPOSED to represent the people of its country, the people who support it, the people who pay for them to live in huge fuckin houses and drive 12 SUV's at the same time, so the people should have the right to make their own decisions that effect themselves, and have nothing to do with everyone else in the country.[/quote30b3245302]

A lot of people think that it's wrong. I'm not the only one. So you're basically saying that if someone stands up against all of these killings in these abortions yet more people want to have abortions than people who don't, it's okay? Majority rules doesn't always settle our problems.



It's the popular thing because woman want to have the right to be able to not have to give birth. But they already have that right. Don't have sex or use a condom or birth control.

[quote30b3245302]if someone belives it is the right thing to do, then they should have the choice to make that decision.[/quote30b3245302]

Think about that statement for a while there TSJ. wink

That's really not true at all. So if someone believes that the right thing to do for himself is to go kill someone who's been bothering him it's okay? Because that's basically what abortionists are doing.[/quote30b3245302]

you took that way too literally.

my wife gets pregnant, but we cant look after or care for the baby, she has an abortion, who does that affect? does it affect you? your friends? the government? no its affects my wife and i and the kid. why should someone else be telling us what we can and cannot do based on what THEY believe is right or wrong?

if someone think it is the right thing to do to kill someone because they are pissing them off, then who does that affect? it affects the person who kills, the person who is killed, the family of the person who kills and the family of the person who is killed, the friends of both the killed and the killer, maybe even the community they are from and if you want to take it even further (depending on who is killed) the entire nation.

thats the difference between why someone should have the choice to have an abortion, and why they shouldnt have the choice to kill someone.

[quote30b3245302="Jake"]Why is it that people only care about human life before it comes out of the womb and afterward leave it to fend for itself?

What about the destruction of other forms of life (animals, plants, etc)?

Why is only human life considered sacred and nothing else? All other life forms on our planet are integral to our continued existence here, yet we continually wipe them off the planet while bleating about the evils of abortion.

What about the killing of people using the act of war?

If we're going to preach on about the sanctity of life, we should be taking into account the sanctity of ALL life, not just ourselves. We are nothing without all of the other life forms surrounding us.[/quote30b3245302]

I really couldnt have put it better myself.

its ok to kill animals, or trees (they live you know?) or innocent people in far off lands, destroy the jungles and the environment.

unless something soon happens about the state of our world and environment, then it really wont make any difference how many abortions take place because every single one of us will be fucked.

[quotec7e67fbcc2="theysayjump"]
My wife gets pregnant, but we cant look after or care for the baby, she has an abortion, who does that affect? does it affect you? your friends? the government? no its affects my wife and i [bc7e67fbcc2]and the kid[/bc7e67fbcc2]. [/quotec7e67fbcc2]

You said it, it affects the kid. You are killing the kid without giving him a chance to live his/her life. If you go out and kill a homeless guy with no friends, is it wrong? It doesn't affect anyone except for that guy.

[quotec7e67fbcc2]why should someone else be telling us what we can and cannot do based on what THEY believe is right or wrong?[/quotec7e67fbcc2]

Once again, that's their job and what a government is for. To distinguish right from wrong.

[quotec7e67fbcc2]
its ok to kill animals, or trees (they live you know?) or innocent people in far off lands, destroy the jungles and the environment.

unless something soon happens about the state of our world and environment, then it really wont make any difference how many abortions take place because every single one of us will be fucked.[/quotec7e67fbcc2]

How hypocritical and selfish is it to say that killing innocent people in far off lands is wrong, but abortion that is happening in millions here in our country is okay? How can you put the value a tree over a baby?

It's insanely selfish to say it's okay to kill a baby, because you're not ready. You screwed up, you deal with it.

[quote05de547593="drummer_kew_03"]

Once again, that's their job and what a government is for. To distinguish right from wrong.
[/quote05de547593]

I disagree. The government does plenty that is horribly wrong. Not just the US government but governments all over the world and all through history. One who does not have any sense of right or wrong or doesn't care has no business telling me what is right or wrong.

[quote05de547593="drummer_kew_03"]
[quote05de547593]
its ok to kill animals, or trees (they live you know?) or innocent people in far off lands, destroy the jungles and the environment.

unless something soon happens about the state of our world and environment, then it really wont make any difference how many abortions take place because every single one of us will be fucked.[/quote05de547593]

How hypocritical and selfish is it to say that killing innocent people in far off lands is wrong, but abortion that is happening in millions here in our country is okay? How can you put the value a tree over a baby?
[/quote05de547593]

A tree is ALIVE. So are animals and our entire ecosystem which we are currently in the process of destroying. If we destroy all of that life, then we are destroying ourselves at the same time...its already happening.
You want to stop killing babies? OK, stop killing everything else at the same time and we will be on the same page.

[quote79677161fe="Jake"][quote79677161fe="drummer_kew_03"]

Once again, that's their job and what a government is for. To distinguish right from wrong.
[/quote79677161fe]

I disagree. The government does plenty that is horribly wrong. Not just the US government but governments all over the world and all through history. One who does not have any sense of right or wrong or doesn't care has no business telling me what is right or wrong.

[quote79677161fe="drummer_kew_03"]
[quote79677161fe]
its ok to kill animals, or trees (they live you know?) or innocent people in far off lands, destroy the jungles and the environment.

unless something soon happens about the state of our world and environment, then it really wont make any difference how many abortions take place because every single one of us will be fucked.[/quote79677161fe]

How hypocritical and selfish is it to say that killing innocent people in far off lands is wrong, but abortion that is happening in millions here in our country is okay? How can you put the value a tree over a baby?
[/quote79677161fe]

A tree is ALIVE. So are animals and our entire ecosystem which we are currently in the process of destroying. If we destroy all of that life, then we are destroying ourselves at the same time...its already happening.
You want to stop killing babies? OK, stop killing everything else at the same time and we will be on the same page.[/quote79677161fe]

i got nothin against jake, in fact i think he's the man, but i'd like to get back on topic for a second ...


theysayjump said "my wife gets pregnant, but we cant look after or care for the baby, she has an abortion" ... that statement is everything that is wrong about abortion ... let's take this scenario and translate it to other situations ....

"i slacked off all term, and failed my finals, so i paid someone i know at the university to change my transcript"

"i bought a new car last year, but i can't keep up with the bills, so i'm gonna steal from people until i can"

"i went to the casino, gambled away my money, but needed the money, so i killed the dealer, took my money and ran outta there"

funny how the last one, which seems totally outrageous, is eerily similar to abortion; you kill someone to avoid the consequences of your actions.

it's point-blank, it's simple, abortion (as you described it) is wrong.

the exception is when the sex wasn't consensual.

actions have consequences, known well in advance ... if you can find a way to prove that wrong, be my guest

[quote63214383cd="theysayjump"][quote63214383cd="J4320"][quote63214383cd="theysayjump"][quote63214383cd="J4320"][quote63214383cd="theysayjump"][quote63214383cd="J4320"]Who are we to determine if a living baby can live or not? We are KILLING them - even in the womb.[/quote63214383cd]

as much as i agree with you about partial birth abortions, i cant agree with the above statement.

who are the government to determine if a baby can live or not? why is it ok for the government to decide whats OK and what isnt when it comes to our babies, children, child etc, but its not OK for us to decide?

would you want the government coming into your house and telling you where the furniture should go, when to clean up, who is allowed in the house, what it looks etc?

if not, then why would you want the government to decide whether you should be allowed to have an abortion or not?[/quote63214383cd]

I never even mentioned the government. All I'm saying is that abortion is wrong and it should be stopped. What I meant by that statement you quoted was mankind in general.

[quote63214383cd="J4320"]Who are [b63214383cd]we[/b63214383cd] to determine if a living baby can live or not? We are KILLING them - even in the womb.[/quote63214383cd]

we = mankind

What gives us justification to just kill innocent babies like that?

There are other ways of preventing child birth such as condoms and birth control and such. But yes, I know those can fail sometimes and girls can end up with unexpected pregnancy. Why not have the baby and give it up for adoption? Why not let a couple that can't have kids who have always wanted a baby have one?[/quote63214383cd]

ok my bad, when you said we i thought you mean regular people.
[b63214383cd]
anyway, just because one person believes it is wrong, why should their view be forced on everyone else? (i.e you saying it should be stopped because you think it is wrong). if someone belives it is the right thing to do, then they should have the choice to make that decision.[/b63214383cd]

its the same with gay marraige. Bush believes it is wrong so he doesnt allow it to be legal. Imagine if someone was elected president who thoguht that hetrosexual couples shouldnt be allowed to marry. should they be allowed to make that decision for everyone in the country based on what they belive is right? no it should be up to the individual to decide how to live their life.

governments are SUPPOSED to represent the people of its country, the people who support it, the people who pay for them to live in huge fuckin houses and drive 12 SUV's at the same time, so the people should have the right to make their own decisions that effect themselves, and have nothing to do with everyone else in the country.[/quote63214383cd]

A lot of people think that it's wrong. I'm not the only one. So you're basically saying that if someone stands up against all of these killings in these abortions yet more people want to have abortions than people who don't, it's okay? Majority rules doesn't always settle our problems.



It's the popular thing because woman want to have the right to be able to not have to give birth. But they already have that right. Don't have sex or use a condom or birth control.

[quote63214383cd]if someone belives it is the right thing to do, then they should have the choice to make that decision.[/quote63214383cd]

Think about that statement for a while there TSJ. wink

That's really not true at all. So if someone believes that the right thing to do for himself is to go kill someone who's been bothering him it's okay? Because that's basically what abortionists are doing.[/quote63214383cd]

you took that way too literally.

[b63214383cd]my wife gets pregnant, but we cant look after or care for the baby, she has an abortion, who does that affect? does it affect you? your friends? the government? no its affects my wife and i and the kid. why should someone else be telling us what we can and cannot do based on what THEY believe is right or wrong?[/b63214383cd]

if someone think it is the right thing to do to kill someone because they are pissing them off, then who does that affect? it affects the person who kills, the person who is killed, the family of the person who kills and the family of the person who is killed, the friends of both the killed and the killer, maybe even the community they are from and if you want to take it even further (depending on who is killed) the entire nation.

thats the difference between why someone should have the choice to have an abortion, and why they shouldnt have the choice to kill someone.

[quote63214383cd="Jake"]Why is it that people only care about human life before it comes out of the womb and afterward leave it to fend for itself?

What about the destruction of other forms of life (animals, plants, etc)?

Why is only human life considered sacred and nothing else? All other life forms on our planet are integral to our continued existence here, yet we continually wipe them off the planet while bleating about the evils of abortion.

What about the killing of people using the act of war?

If we're going to preach on about the sanctity of life, we should be taking into account the sanctity of ALL life, not just ourselves. We are nothing without all of the other life forms surrounding us.[/quote63214383cd]

I really couldnt have put it better myself.

its ok to kill animals, or trees (they live you know?) or innocent people in far off lands, destroy the jungles and the environment.

unless something soon happens about the state of our world and environment, then it really wont make any difference how many abortions take place because every single one of us will be fucked.[/quote63214383cd]

Yeah, you're affecting your kid by killing him and he doesn't even have a chance to choose life or death. A lot of people and people in the government don't want that. So that is why they are getting in people's lives and choices about abortion.

[quote318913744b="emailjwr"][quote318913744b="Jake"][quote318913744b="drummer_kew_03"]

Once again, that's their job and what a government is for. To distinguish right from wrong.
[/quote318913744b]

I disagree. The government does plenty that is horribly wrong. Not just the US government but governments all over the world and all through history. One who does not have any sense of right or wrong or doesn't care has no business telling me what is right or wrong.

[quote318913744b="drummer_kew_03"]
[quote318913744b]
its ok to kill animals, or trees (they live you know?) or innocent people in far off lands, destroy the jungles and the environment.

unless something soon happens about the state of our world and environment, then it really wont make any difference how many abortions take place because every single one of us will be fucked.[/quote318913744b]

How hypocritical and selfish is it to say that killing innocent people in far off lands is wrong, but abortion that is happening in millions here in our country is okay? How can you put the value a tree over a baby?
[/quote318913744b]

A tree is ALIVE. So are animals and our entire ecosystem which we are currently in the process of destroying. If we destroy all of that life, then we are destroying ourselves at the same time...its already happening.
You want to stop killing babies? OK, stop killing everything else at the same time and we will be on the same page.[/quote318913744b]

i got nothin against jake, in fact i think he's the man, but i'd like to get back on topic for a second ...


theysayjump said "my wife gets pregnant, but we cant look after or care for the baby, she has an abortion" ... that statement is everything that is wrong about abortion ... let's take this scenario and translate it to other situations ....

"i slacked off all term, and failed my finals, so i paid someone i know at the university to change my transcript"

"i bought a new car last year, but i can't keep up with the bills, so i'm gonna steal from people until i can"

"i went to the casino, gambled away my money, but needed the money, so i killed the dealer, took my money and ran outta there"

funny how the last one, which seems totally outrageous, is eerily similar to abortion; you kill someone to avoid the consequences of your actions.

it's point-blank, it's simple, abortion (as you described it) is wrong.

the exception is when the sex wasn't consensual.

actions have consequences, known well in advance ... if you can find a way to prove that wrong, be my guest[/quote318913744b]

just incase anyone misunderstood, my wife and i havent had any kids or any abortions.....just wanted to clear that up, but anyway.......

........how can anyone prove that actions dont have consquences? its a fact.

people shouldnt have irresponsible sex in the 1st place if they cant have kids, take care of kids, bring them up etc, but mistakes do happen, condoms do split or break.

for the people who have irresponsible sex and get pregnant, they have nobody to blame but themselves. i have already said that, but i do believe that abortion should be allowed because, like i also already said, who are YOU or ME to tell someone else how to live their life

people have their pets put down, are complaining about that? are you complaining about animals in the wild becoming extinct? no, and why not?

[quote318913744b="J4320"]Yeah, you're affecting your kid by killing him and he doesn't even have a chance to choose life or death.[/quote318913744b]

i already said that it affects the kid, it affects the kid more than anyone else since thats who it happens to.

[quote318913744b="J4320"]A lot of people and people in the government don't want that. So that is why they are getting in people's lives and choices about abortion.[/quote318913744b]

alot of people and people in the government wanted to keep segregation, does that mean that they were right? alot of people and people in the government wanted to invade Iraq, does that mean they are right?

just because some people in the government believe that something is right or wrong, doesnt mean that they should impose their views on the entire nation, which in turn can have implications on the entire world.

[quote0d551f1f07="theysayjump"][quote0d551f1f07="emailjwr"][quote0d551f1f07="Jake"][quote0d551f1f07="drummer_kew_03"]

Once again, that's their job and what a government is for. To distinguish right from wrong.
[/quote0d551f1f07]

I disagree. The government does plenty that is horribly wrong. Not just the US government but governments all over the world and all through history. One who does not have any sense of right or wrong or doesn't care has no business telling me what is right or wrong.

[quote0d551f1f07="drummer_kew_03"]
[quote0d551f1f07]
its ok to kill animals, or trees (they live you know?) or innocent people in far off lands, destroy the jungles and the environment.

unless something soon happens about the state of our world and environment, then it really wont make any difference how many abortions take place because every single one of us will be fucked.[/quote0d551f1f07]

How hypocritical and selfish is it to say that killing innocent people in far off lands is wrong, but abortion that is happening in millions here in our country is okay? How can you put the value a tree over a baby?
[/quote0d551f1f07]

A tree is ALIVE. So are animals and our entire ecosystem which we are currently in the process of destroying. If we destroy all of that life, then we are destroying ourselves at the same time...its already happening.
You want to stop killing babies? OK, stop killing everything else at the same time and we will be on the same page.[/quote0d551f1f07]

i got nothin against jake, in fact i think he's the man, but i'd like to get back on topic for a second ...


theysayjump said "my wife gets pregnant, but we cant look after or care for the baby, she has an abortion" ... that statement is everything that is wrong about abortion ... let's take this scenario and translate it to other situations ....

"i slacked off all term, and failed my finals, so i paid someone i know at the university to change my transcript"

"i bought a new car last year, but i can't keep up with the bills, so i'm gonna steal from people until i can"

"i went to the casino, gambled away my money, but needed the money, so i killed the dealer, took my money and ran outta there"

funny how the last one, which seems totally outrageous, is eerily similar to abortion; you kill someone to avoid the consequences of your actions.

it's point-blank, it's simple, abortion (as you described it) is wrong.

the exception is when the sex wasn't consensual.

actions have consequences, known well in advance ... if you can find a way to prove that wrong, be my guest[/quote0d551f1f07]

just incase anyone misunderstood, my wife and i havent had any kids or any abortions.....just wanted to clear that up, but anyway.......

........how can anyone prove that actions dont have consquences? its a fact.

people shouldnt have irresponsible sex in the 1st place if they cant have kids, take care of kids, bring them up etc, but mistakes do happen, condoms do split or break.

for the people who have irresponsible sex and get pregnant, they have nobody to blame but themselves. i have already said that, but i do believe that abortion should be allowed because, like i also already said, who are YOU or ME to tell someone else how to live their life

people have their pets put down, are complaining about that? are you complaining about animals in the wild becoming extinct? no, and why not?

[quote0d551f1f07="J4320"]Yeah, you're affecting your kid by killing him and he doesn't even have a chance to choose life or death.[/quote0d551f1f07]

i already said that it affects the kid, it affects the kid more than anyone else since thats who it happens to.

[quote0d551f1f07="J4320"]A lot of people and people in the government don't want that. So that is why they are getting in people's lives and choices about abortion.[/quote0d551f1f07]

[b0d551f1f07]alot of people and people in the government wanted to keep segregation, does that mean that they were right? alot of people and people in the government wanted to invade Iraq, does that mean they are right?[/b0d551f1f07]

just because some people in the government believe that something is right or wrong, doesnt mean that they should impose their views on the entire nation, which in turn can have implications on the entire world.[/quote0d551f1f07]

It's a case by case basis.

[quotefe256fb62d="J4320"][quotefe256fb62d="theysayjump"][quotefe256fb62d="emailjwr"][quotefe256fb62d="Jake"][quotefe256fb62d="drummer_kew_03"]

Once again, that's their job and what a government is for. To distinguish right from wrong.
[/quotefe256fb62d]

I disagree. The government does plenty that is horribly wrong. Not just the US government but governments all over the world and all through history. One who does not have any sense of right or wrong or doesn't care has no business telling me what is right or wrong.

[quotefe256fb62d="drummer_kew_03"]
[quotefe256fb62d]
its ok to kill animals, or trees (they live you know?) or innocent people in far off lands, destroy the jungles and the environment.

unless something soon happens about the state of our world and environment, then it really wont make any difference how many abortions take place because every single one of us will be fucked.[/quotefe256fb62d]

How hypocritical and selfish is it to say that killing innocent people in far off lands is wrong, but abortion that is happening in millions here in our country is okay? How can you put the value a tree over a baby?
[/quotefe256fb62d]

A tree is ALIVE. So are animals and our entire ecosystem which we are currently in the process of destroying. If we destroy all of that life, then we are destroying ourselves at the same time...its already happening.
You want to stop killing babies? OK, stop killing everything else at the same time and we will be on the same page.[/quotefe256fb62d]

i got nothin against jake, in fact i think he's the man, but i'd like to get back on topic for a second ...


theysayjump said "my wife gets pregnant, but we cant look after or care for the baby, she has an abortion" ... that statement is everything that is wrong about abortion ... let's take this scenario and translate it to other situations ....

"i slacked off all term, and failed my finals, so i paid someone i know at the university to change my transcript"

"i bought a new car last year, but i can't keep up with the bills, so i'm gonna steal from people until i can"

"i went to the casino, gambled away my money, but needed the money, so i killed the dealer, took my money and ran outta there"

funny how the last one, which seems totally outrageous, is eerily similar to abortion; you kill someone to avoid the consequences of your actions.

it's point-blank, it's simple, abortion (as you described it) is wrong.

the exception is when the sex wasn't consensual.

actions have consequences, known well in advance ... if you can find a way to prove that wrong, be my guest[/quotefe256fb62d]

just incase anyone misunderstood, my wife and i havent had any kids or any abortions.....just wanted to clear that up, but anyway.......

........how can anyone prove that actions dont have consquences? its a fact.

people shouldnt have irresponsible sex in the 1st place if they cant have kids, take care of kids, bring them up etc, but mistakes do happen, condoms do split or break.

for the people who have irresponsible sex and get pregnant, they have nobody to blame but themselves. i have already said that, but i do believe that abortion should be allowed because, like i also already said, who are YOU or ME to tell someone else how to live their life

people have their pets put down, are complaining about that? are you complaining about animals in the wild becoming extinct? no, and why not?

[quotefe256fb62d="J4320"]Yeah, you're affecting your kid by killing him and he doesn't even have a chance to choose life or death.[/quotefe256fb62d]

i already said that it affects the kid, it affects the kid more than anyone else since thats who it happens to.

[quotefe256fb62d="J4320"]A lot of people and people in the government don't want that. So that is why they are getting in people's lives and choices about abortion.[/quotefe256fb62d]

[bfe256fb62d]alot of people and people in the government wanted to keep segregation, does that mean that they were right? alot of people and people in the government wanted to invade Iraq, does that mean they are right?[/bfe256fb62d]

just because some people in the government believe that something is right or wrong, doesnt mean that they should impose their views on the entire nation, which in turn can have implications on the entire world.[/quotefe256fb62d]

Well duh. It's a case by case basis. roll[/quotefe256fb62d]

ahhhhh ok, it all makes sense now.

when its a decision that affects you and/or your family only (abortion, gay marraige) then the government decide its "bad mmk?"

when its a decision that has global implications (Iraq war, pulling out of the Kyoto treaty), then they decide its good.

[quote761245f4f8="theysayjump"][quote761245f4f8="J4320"][quote761245f4f8="theysayjump"][quote761245f4f8="emailjwr"][quote761245f4f8="Jake"][quote761245f4f8="drummer_kew_03"]

Once again, that's their job and what a government is for. To distinguish right from wrong.
[/quote761245f4f8]

I disagree. The government does plenty that is horribly wrong. Not just the US government but governments all over the world and all through history. One who does not have any sense of right or wrong or doesn't care has no business telling me what is right or wrong.

[quote761245f4f8="drummer_kew_03"]
[quote761245f4f8]
its ok to kill animals, or trees (they live you know?) or innocent people in far off lands, destroy the jungles and the environment.

unless something soon happens about the state of our world and environment, then it really wont make any difference how many abortions take place because every single one of us will be fucked.[/quote761245f4f8]

How hypocritical and selfish is it to say that killing innocent people in far off lands is wrong, but abortion that is happening in millions here in our country is okay? How can you put the value a tree over a baby?
[/quote761245f4f8]

A tree is ALIVE. So are animals and our entire ecosystem which we are currently in the process of destroying. If we destroy all of that life, then we are destroying ourselves at the same time...its already happening.
You want to stop killing babies? OK, stop killing everything else at the same time and we will be on the same page.[/quote761245f4f8]

i got nothin against jake, in fact i think he's the man, but i'd like to get back on topic for a second ...


theysayjump said "my wife gets pregnant, but we cant look after or care for the baby, she has an abortion" ... that statement is everything that is wrong about abortion ... let's take this scenario and translate it to other situations ....

"i slacked off all term, and failed my finals, so i paid someone i know at the university to change my transcript"

"i bought a new car last year, but i can't keep up with the bills, so i'm gonna steal from people until i can"

"i went to the casino, gambled away my money, but needed the money, so i killed the dealer, took my money and ran outta there"

funny how the last one, which seems totally outrageous, is eerily similar to abortion; you kill someone to avoid the consequences of your actions.

it's point-blank, it's simple, abortion (as you described it) is wrong.

the exception is when the sex wasn't consensual.

actions have consequences, known well in advance ... if you can find a way to prove that wrong, be my guest[/quote761245f4f8]

just incase anyone misunderstood, my wife and i havent had any kids or any abortions.....just wanted to clear that up, but anyway.......

........how can anyone prove that actions dont have consquences? its a fact.

people shouldnt have irresponsible sex in the 1st place if they cant have kids, take care of kids, bring them up etc, but mistakes do happen, condoms do split or break.

for the people who have irresponsible sex and get pregnant, they have nobody to blame but themselves. i have already said that, but i do believe that abortion should be allowed because, like i also already said, who are YOU or ME to tell someone else how to live their life

people have their pets put down, are complaining about that? are you complaining about animals in the wild becoming extinct? no, and why not?

[quote761245f4f8="J4320"]Yeah, you're affecting your kid by killing him and he doesn't even have a chance to choose life or death.[/quote761245f4f8]

i already said that it affects the kid, it affects the kid more than anyone else since thats who it happens to.

[quote761245f4f8="J4320"]A lot of people and people in the government don't want that. So that is why they are getting in people's lives and choices about abortion.[/quote761245f4f8]

[b761245f4f8]alot of people and people in the government wanted to keep segregation, does that mean that they were right? alot of people and people in the government wanted to invade Iraq, does that mean they are right?[/b761245f4f8]

just because some people in the government believe that something is right or wrong, doesnt mean that they should impose their views on the entire nation, which in turn can have implications on the entire world.[/quote761245f4f8]

Well duh. It's a case by case basis. roll[/quote761245f4f8]

ahhhhh ok, it all makes sense now.

when its a decision that affects you and/or your family only (abortion, gay marraige) then the government decide its "bad mmk?"

when its a decision that has global implications (Iraq war, pulling out of the Kyoto treaty), then they decide its good.[/quote761245f4f8]

Lol I see that you quoted my " roll " message. I went back and changed that because I thought it sounded a little rude and I have nothing against you. These arguments are healthy. D

yeah i wondered why you changed it, but thats what i thought.

and yes, they are healthy, as long as there is no flaming and people can be mature about it. D

[quote18983b5536="TSJ"]like i also already said, who are YOU or ME to tell someone else how to live their life[/quote18983b5536]

If nobody has the right to tell those parents how to live, then who are those parents to tell the child they don't have the right to live at all, let alone how.

Why is it that the child must pay for the faults of the parents?

I'm really trying to keep religion out of this and use logic to argue my side. Am I at least making good arguments?

[quote18983b5536="Jake"][quote18983b5536="drummer_kew_03"]
[quote18983b5536]
its ok to kill animals, or trees (they live you know?) or innocent people in far off lands, destroy the jungles and the environment.

unless something soon happens about the state of our world and environment, then it really wont make any difference how many abortions take place because every single one of us will be fucked.[/quote18983b5536]

How hypocritical and selfish is it to say that killing innocent people in far off lands is wrong, but abortion that is happening in millions here in our country is okay? How can you put the value a tree over a baby?
[/quote18983b5536]

A tree is ALIVE. So are animals and our entire ecosystem which we are currently in the process of destroying. If we destroy all of that life, then we are destroying ourselves at the same time...its already happening.
You want to stop killing babies? OK, stop killing everything else at the same time and we will be on the same page.[/quote18983b5536]

Are you saying that because so much other stuff is dying, that it doesn't matter if children are dying?

On a side note I don't believe killing animals or trees for food or other products is a bad thing. We just need to do it responsibly. Animals eat each other, plants kill each other, animals use plants, and vice versa. It's part of nature. As long as we try to keep it in control it's fine.

------------------
drummer guy said If nobody has the right to tell those parents how to live, then who are those parents to tell the child they don't have the right to live at all, let alone how.

Why is it that the child must pay for the faults of the parents?

I'm really trying to keep religion out of this and use logic to argue my side. Am I at least making good arguments?


----------------------

great points man, i agree totally ... TSJ you just danced around my challenge; actions have consequences, and abortion (in the case of any consensual sex) is the murder of a child for the ease of the parents ... please word your way around that one ...

what you call 'someone telling you how to live' is on the same scale as law itself someone telling you that you can't kill someone is nothing new

[quotef2b640f040="emailjwr"]------------------
drummer guy said If nobody has the right to tell those parents how to live, then who are those parents to tell the child they don't have the right to live at all, let alone how.

Why is it that the child must pay for the faults of the parents?

I'm really trying to keep religion out of this and use logic to argue my side. Am I at least making good arguments?


----------------------

great points man, i agree totally ... TSJ you just danced around my challenge; actions have consequences, and abortion (in the case of any consensual sex) is the murder of a child for the ease of the parents ... please word your way around that one ...

what you call 'someone telling you how to live' is on the same scale as law itself someone telling you that you can't kill someone is nothing new[/quotef2b640f040]

what do you mean i danced my way around your challenge? was it the Pepsi challenge? because i didnt see any challenge. all i saw was you asking for someone to prove something wrong, that is already a fact(every action has a consequence).

and to word my way "around that one", as you put it, here goes

murder, has mailce. abortion doesnt. saying its for the ease of the parents is making it sound like its an easy decision, which im sure its not. you can call it what you want, murder, homicide......whatever you want. but there is a difference between killing unborn child and killing some "homeless guy with no friends". what would be the reasoning behind killing a homeless guy?

what about when a mother's life is in danger if they baby was to be born? i know that ill (not literally obviously) probably never be able to have kids
because the condition of my wifes health and especially heart is too bad, that theres a good chance it could kill her. but if it came down to my wife having an abortion and saving her life, or her having the baby and my wife dying, i know what i would choose. we wouldnt let ourselves get in that situation in thr 1st place though because we know we arent fit to look after kids.

maybe if there was better sex education (youd be surprised how many girls think that they cant get pregnant the 1st time they have sex) and better access to contraception there wouldnt be the need for abortions.

what about people of a certain religion who believe contraception is wrong?

im not sure if you have anything like this here or not (and im not talking about freecondoms.com), but in Scotland, we can get contraception for free. they give it out in schools and certain youth groups and accosiations because they/we know that kids are going to have sex ragardless, so why not make sure they are at least protected? its not like its encouraging them to have sex, because the statistics show that kids are having sex more often and at younger ages.

[quote1519c70b61="drummer_kew_03"]
Are you saying that because so much other stuff is dying, that it doesn't matter if children are dying?
[/quote1519c70b61]

Not at all, I just feel that both issues need to be addressed at once and if you stand for one issue (against abortion), then the other (saving other life) should be of equal importance. Claiming one is more important than the other is a contradiction in terms. All life is equally important in my opinion.

[quote1519c70b61="drummer_kew_03"]
On a side note I don't believe killing animals or trees for food or other products is a bad thing. We just need to do it responsibly. Animals eat each other, plants kill each other, animals use plants, and vice versa. It's part of nature. As long as we try to keep it in control it's fine.[/quote1519c70b61]

Neither do I. I fully agree with your above statement about using resources responsibly. The problem is that our natural environment is being plundered for profit without any regard for the needs of future generations and our long term survival.

If you want an example of disgusting use of what I consider 'natural capital', visit the following website www.factoryfarming.org. On that site, you will find information equally as disgusting as the pictures of aborted babies earlier in this discussion.

Now please keep in mind, if I find out that my wife is pregnant tomorrow, we aren't going to rush off to the abortion clinic. We would have the child and be happy. I don't condone abortion or promote it, I just feel that completely outlawing it is a short sighted solution to a much larger problem.